My internet friend Mike Treder pointed out something to me that escaped my notice: Sergio Mitre got the save in yesterday’s Yankees-Tigers game. Which ended 11-5. Mike’s comment:
“You come into a game with your team leading 11 to 2, pitch three
innings, give up six hits and three runs, and you’re given a “Save” for
that??!”
Great point!
I don’t want to do away with the save statistic. I’m used to it by now and it’s kind of fun to argue about. But I do wish there was some way we could make it bear a closer relationship to the value a relief pitcher truly provides. For starters, the “three innings to close a game = automatic save” rule should probably be scrapped.
Mostly, we should find some way to prevent saves from being awarded to pitchers who really aren’t terribly effective. But I’ll grant that, the more we get into the land of subjectivity, the more problems we likely create.
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- nps6724 - Aug 20, 2010 at 11:44 AM
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It would be nice if they broke all saves down to 1-run, 2-run, and 3-run saves; same with blown saves. Still have an overall saves stat, but make it easier for people to see how they’re doing it. If one guy only gets saves with a 3-run lead and all his blown saves are in 1-run appearances, then you know he’s not nearly as good as his total saves would suggest.
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- Bill@TDS - Aug 20, 2010 at 11:45 AM
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Wes Littleton earned a save in that game in 2007 that the Rangers ended up winning 30-3. He entered in the 7th, up “only” 14-3.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BAL/BAL200708221.shtml
It wasn’t a bad performance (2 hits, a walk, 0 R in his 3 innings), but his WPA for the game was 0.001.
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- BleedGreen - Aug 20, 2010 at 11:55 AM
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I thought it was only a save situation with a 3 run or less lead? How is going into the 9th up 7 runs considered a save situation?
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- Trevor B - Aug 20, 2010 at 12:01 PM
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3 innings to close a game is an automatic save, as Craig pointed out.
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- geoknows - Aug 20, 2010 at 12:01 PM
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Mitre came into the game in the 7th and pitched three full innings. Closing the game by pitching three full innings in a win constitutes a save under the rules, no matter what the score.
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- nps6724 - Aug 20, 2010 at 12:01 PM
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He didn’t enter in the 9th. You can also record a save if you pitch 3 innings in relief and finish the game. It’s a ridiculous rule in today’s game.
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- BC - Aug 20, 2010 at 12:03 PM
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It’s officially three runs or less, or three or more innings of relief to close out the win. You also cannot pitch your way into a save situation (otherwise Brad Lidge would have about 75 saves).
Although…. I believe the official scorer can employ judgement and not award a save. I’ve seen this done in weird situations in awarding wins. I swear I’ve seen it done with saves as well. Like some guy pitches 4 innings of relief, gives up 6 runs and the team wins 10-6. I swear I’ve seen it.
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- David - Aug 20, 2010 at 12:17 PM
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I think a pitcher should not be allowed to get a Win and a Blown Save in the same game. I suppose assigning the win would have to be one of those official scorer decisions, like when the team wins but the starting pitcher went less than 5 innings. I just don’t see how a closer can cough up a lead, have his team score the next half inning, and be ‘rewarded’ with a W.
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- Detroit Michael - Aug 20, 2010 at 12:23 PM
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If someone wants the save rule, please read 10.19 at http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/official_scorer_10.jsp. Don’t rely on posters on baseball message boards to paraphrase it correctly.
If we want to measure reliever clutch performance, WPA seems to be more effective than tinkering with the save rule.
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- nps6724 - Aug 20, 2010 at 12:36 PM
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Who else could you give the win to? There’s no other pitcher of record.
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- JBerardi - Aug 20, 2010 at 12:37 PM
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Win Probability Added. Know it, love it:
http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=rel&lg=all&qual=y&type=3&season=2010&month=0
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- BC - Aug 20, 2010 at 12:44 PM
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Posters should also make sure that the URL they post isn’t dead, like the one above is.
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- DavidBurden - Aug 20, 2010 at 1:07 PM
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That link works if you chop the trailing period.
An earlier poster mentioned scorer’s judgment being involved – ie, no save for pitching three innings poorly – and I recall seeing that elsewhere as well, but it’s not in the rulebook.
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- bensdad00 - Aug 20, 2010 at 1:11 PM
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Does a pitcher ‘have’ to get a win in every game? The rules permit Runs to score without an RBI, certainly they can allow a team to win without an individual accomplishment as well.
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- El Bravo - Aug 20, 2010 at 1:12 PM
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exactly why these stats can really suck, b/c under the rules, you can def get a win + blown save.
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- El Bravo - Aug 20, 2010 at 1:13 PM
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Craig, can you start every blog with “My internet friend….”?????
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- birdmancometh - Aug 20, 2010 at 1:34 PM
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If it helps, I love this idea…
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- BC - Aug 20, 2010 at 2:13 PM
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Apparently the judgement part of the Save rule has been removed. It used to be “pitch at least three innings effectively, but the “effectively” was dropped from the rule at some point. See here:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Save
My bad.
