Skip to content

Rays attendance is not about fan apathy. It's a structural thing.

Sep 28, 2010, 10:06 AM EDT

39 Comments

I think Bob nailed the Rays attendance hubbub pretty good last night, but I figured I’d add my thoughts.

No one is saying that it’s wonderful that the Rays drew poorly last night (or draw poorly in general), but I think the notion of blaming Rays fans for their apathy or failure to support the team is myopic.

Yes, there was a history of losing there that has been hard to overcome, but there are institutional problems that have always meant for poor attendance and always will make for poor attendance for the club.  The park sucks. It’s separated from the main population center of the Bay Area — Tampa — by a long and annoying bridge. The people that do live in St. Petersburg are not demographically ideal for baseball. Many of them are also likely transplants as well, and have loyalties to other teams.

We’ve heard all of this before, of course, so I’m a bit puzzled at the “why won’t Rays fans support their team!” comments this morning. Not so much from David Price and Evan Longoria — they’re emotional about it, I get that — but from a lot of fans on the web and on Twitter.

For example, one of my friends on the web noted that, like Florida, Philadelphia suffers from 12% unemployment right now, and they’ve sold out hundreds of games in a row.  Well, yeah. But that team has also played baseball in that town for a 127 years, the population of Philadelphia is seriously from Philly, and the park is both beautiful and accessible. It’s a gross understatement to say that those things matter, and it’s an unfair simplification of things to slam Rays fans for failing to support their team.

Buster Olney added a nice bit to this in his column this morning as well: marketing matters. He takes David Price and Evan Longoria’s comments about the attendance and pretends a bagel shop owner said the same thing. It’s understandably silly. Location matters. Marketing matters. Market matters.  In this, the Rays are fighting against the tide (and in some cases, have themselves to blame).

I think the Rays fans that do show up are great fans. But I get why many don’t show up.  It may lead to the team leaving someday. If so, hey, that’s business, and it has always been a possibility with this team. I don’t see it, however, as a reason to cast aspersions on an entire market.

Skip to Comments (39)
More HardballTalk
Back to Homepage
  1. Jon - Sep 28, 2010 at 10:18 AM

    “I don’t see it, however, as a reason to cast aspersions on an entire market.”
    Casting aspersions is a funny business: in some ways, this entire argument (unemployment + crummy park + transplant fans) is casting aspersions on the market. The fact is that Tampa cannot support a team, and for Price and Longoria to be upset about that, well, they’re just stating the obvious–they would like to play in front of real, live people. It’s not a value judgment to be disappointed in the attendance, but the fact remains, this situation is untenable, and people have every right to wonder why anyone would put a Major League team in such a bad situation.

  2. Simon DelMonte - Sep 28, 2010 at 10:21 AM

    I saw a headline on your sister blog yesterday: “Bucs prepare for season of blackouts.” I don’t know enough about the scene in the Tampa area to know if the Buccaneers have a strong fan base or not, but all you need to do is look at the big economic picture to know it’s not just about “fan apathy” in that region.

  3. BC - Sep 28, 2010 at 10:23 AM

    The stadium might as well be in a demilitarized zone. And Florida will always have the transplant issue. If its not football (college or pro) no one is interested down there.

  4. Ryan K. - Sep 28, 2010 at 10:25 AM

    The Philadelphia region also has ~2.5m more people. And I’d be willing to bet there’s a lot more money there.
    Generally speaking, in these tough economic times, it just seems like it’s in really bad taste to knock other people for not plunking down cash for 81 MLB games. Honestly it makes me a bit queasy reading ESPN-types (Seth Everett for one) tut-tutting the people of Tampa. The best thing you could say about this kind of criticism is that it lacks perspective.

  5. Old Gator - Sep 28, 2010 at 10:34 AM

    “The park sucks. It’s separated from the main population center of the Bay Area — Tampa — by a long and annoying bridge.”
    .
    Three long and annoying bridges. Four if you count the Skyway, which at least proffers an occasional pleasant view. Yes, the park sucks. Do you really want me to start dumping on that mass molehill whose interior decorator would have been thought declasse by a CHUD yet again? I need to save some euphemisms for the offseason.
    .
    Location doesn’t matter, unless you happen to be the boyfriend of a volcano virgin and live on the slopes of Mount Pinatubo. Let me take the bagel store concept a step further and submit to you the case of Sammy’s Famous Roumanian Steakhouse on the northwest corner of Chrystie and Delancey Streets in lower Mahnhattan. It would be hard to imagine a worse neighborhood without resorting to Cormac McCarthy’s vision of postapocalyptic Knoxville in The Road. This is a neighborhood where you can get AIDS from looking at the hookers. But the place is packed to the puppick all the time. We’re back to marketing again. Aside from the sauropod chops and mastadon steaks, freshly made at your table egg creams, roasted pterandons masquerading as chickens, world’s greatest chopped liver (disagree with me only at risk of exposing your ignorance), the crispy outside – tasty inside steak fries the circumference of trashcan lids and the fresh baked rugelach, this place has thrived for decades precisely by trumpeting what a lousy neighborhood it’s in! Whenever they’ve been interviewed, the owners and table captains have repeatedly referred to all the diners’ cars that get stolen or vandalized, how their protection deal with the Mothers and Fathers Italian Association keeps falling through because the security details get scared off, you name it. That’s the ticket!
    .
    Ergo, the Rays ought to be playing up what an atrocious venue they have. Hell, they ought to blow up at least three of the bridges and slap a huge toll on the one they leave over, and tear down that thirty foot high solid oolite wall that runs from Oldsmar to Harbor View so the very few residents of the area smart enough to figure it out can actually drive down the peninsula and screw the bridge altogether.
    .
    And they definitely ought to swing a deal with the Dali Museum just down the street so they can show “Destino” on the jumbotron to distract the fans a little whenever they get to looking around the inside of that horrible place and their skin starts to crawl.

  6. Mike d - Sep 28, 2010 at 10:59 AM

    There were more Phillies fans who drove 3 hours to Washington in the rain last night than Rays fans in their own Stadium so the bridge is a lame excuse. I ve been to almost 30 parks and Tampa bay’s was by far the worse. If you are at the concession stands you wouldn’t even realize a ball game is going on. Plus cutting payroll next year will almost certainly doom the club marketing wise.

  7. Dan - Sep 28, 2010 at 11:00 AM

    Old Gator, how can one guy write so much and say so little? Do you practice this stuff or does all this shit just come out at once?

  8. Jonny5 - Sep 28, 2010 at 11:11 AM

    While I do get the whole history thing. It is fair to say that Philly fans did indeed drive all the way to DC and did sit in the rain just to drive home wet. And darned near as many Philly fans were in DC as showed up to support the Rays. While I get the whole logistics thing with the Rays, it is nowhere near as much of a nightmare heading to DC and back, wet.
    Rays fans do not suck. The ones who actually find enough ambition to come out to the games anyway. Laziness is no excuse!! It is possible that they just don’t have that many fans? period??? The pirates bring that type of crowd during regular season games… It’s just strange to me. I’m just beginning to think it’s a “Florida thing”.

  9. APBA Guy - Sep 28, 2010 at 11:13 AM

    My father, a huge baseball fan when he was alive, lived in St. Pete during part of his final years and never visited the Trop. He loved the Yankees, even though he was from Mississippi, but he hated losing teams. That problem has been solved by the Rays as they appear to have a winner on their hands for several years to come.
    My brother, who played baseball in college and has three sons who play, makes it to the Trop once a year or so. He lives in Orlando, the financial capital of Florida, non-Macondo division. Problem 2 for the Rays-insoluble in Tampa-the stadium is too far from people who have the money and inclination to see games.
    When I visit the old folks in Orlando, I don’t go to the Trop: it’s worse than the Mausoleum-by far, and unlike teh Mausoleum has terrible access. These problems are soluble, but not cheap.
    The Rays need a new stadium, on I-4 between Tampa and Orlando, maybe by Kissimmee (Disney World). This can only happen if they buy out their horrific lease, which will only happen with lots of state pressure (read: money). The state isn’t in a position to do that today with tax revenues shrinking compared to 3 years ago, but the foundation for such a move needs to be put in place now by the owners, through intensive “lobbying” and MLB pressure.

  10. Old Gator - Sep 28, 2010 at 11:13 AM

    Hey Dan, great to see you again! As much as I enjoy your trenchant analyses of my posts, and even though it does usually seem like you don’t read anything else on HBT since you never seem to comment on anything else, I’m sure you must have at least one other interest in the world. Actually, despite the utter dearth of evidence to the contrary, I bet you have lots of them! I – and I am sure many others – would enjoy reading all the substantive things you have to say about baseball, nutrition, pharmacology, politics, coprolite mining, accounting, mycology – you name it! I hope you’ll be bringing to the yearning multitudes your own wealth of opinion and insight into all sorts of things having nothing to do with my comments often!

  11. mgmt404 - Sep 28, 2010 at 11:23 AM

    I had one experience with the stadium in Tampa. A few years ago my family was on vacation in Tampa and I thought it would be cool to go to a Rays game. My wife and I decided to find the stadium during the day so we weren’t driving around blindly in the evening looking for it. We made it to the general area of the stadium and started following the signs.
    We started to get concerned when it appeared that the stadium was located in a really dirty and nasty area of the city. We finally get to the stadium and there, sitting right beside the entrance to the parking area is a car, up on blocks, burned out with swastikas painted all over it. This is right beside the parking area!
    My wife looked at me and said. You can come back for a game tonight but you’ll be alone. I’m not coming down here at night and neither are the kids.
    I think of this every time people complain about the low attendance at Rays games. Nobody should feel that they are risking their lives to go to a baseball game.

  12. El Rayo X - Sep 28, 2010 at 11:27 AM

    Craig stirs up a good one today – I grew up going to Candlestick in from the late 60s on – almost always a miserable experience. My favorite game was when my dad and I picked up some tix in the parking lot, and found the seats were actually behind a concrete pillar. You literally could not see home plate from these seats. Turns out it was a good thing, as a screaming foul ball hit the pillar during the game, surely saving us from injury (Thanks, ‘Stick!). During the ensuing years, crowds measuring in the hundreds were not unusual. The horrible access, arctic wind, and poor concessions kept people away in droves. Now, with PacBell/SBC/AT&T park, even crummy Giants teams over the last few years draw 35k! The park experience makes a huge difference in attendance. Los Gigantes finally figured that out, not all franchises seem to get it…

  13. Evan - Sep 28, 2010 at 11:34 AM

    Craig,
    I think this is more of a broader baseball problem than a Rays problem. If anything, the Rays success is exposing it. I would blame the lack of attendance at last night’s game on the following:
    1) Too many games, too many teams = everything but a pennant and world series being somewhat meaningless.
    2) Games during the week simply don’t work in a changed world with tighter, busier schedules.
    3) Games taking too long in general, both in length and travel time.
    4) Better TVs, grossly expensive tickets/food make watching TV from home pretty awesome in comparison to going to a game.

  14. 02trublu - Sep 28, 2010 at 11:37 AM

    Forget the bridges. An alternative site has been picked further north, and closer to Tampa in the “Toy town” area. Problem is, the economy…everywhere. You can’t expect fans to fork out more money for another stadium when they can barely survive themselves. The Rays want an open air stadium. Do you really think with the heat humidity, and frequent rain, that your going to bring people in????
    The Rays now have one of the largest viewed television markets, in addition to revenue sharing, thanks to the Yankees and the late George Steinbrenner who helped bring the team to the area. Botto line the Rays organixation are cheap and want to hoil the fans and the Tampa Bay area hostage. They just started winning and want immediate gratification. It takes time to build this. How old is the organization?? The St. Pete Fire Dept. want to paint the Rays logos on all their new trucks to show support, but the Rays shot them down andf would not let them. Hmmm…sounds like they’re not looking for support but an excuse. The Ghost of Namoli still haunts us, along with the arrogance they have yet to earn. Look at the attendance at the land of ther rat..um mouse. A sure economic indicator. Perhaps you guys are waiting on the Obama stimulus to bail you out also. You people need a reality check. The economy is going down the toilet yet you want people to sacrifice the little they have to be held hostage to something that won’t be here for long anyway. These are some of the best and most loyal fans. Give us a break already.

  15. mcsnide - Sep 28, 2010 at 11:38 AM

    They just need to follow the lead of these guys: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703989304575503821229703834.html#articleTabs%3Darticle

  16. The Steve Jeltz Experiment - Sep 28, 2010 at 11:40 AM

    Gator, the best part of reading your posts (even when I disagree, which will be close to 100% of the time when it comes to politics and far less when it comes to baseball) is that they’re entertaining and informative. Confusing on occasion, but still vastly entertaining. And yes, this a compliment.

  17. Der Lange - Sep 28, 2010 at 11:44 AM

    Actually, the Tampa Bay baseball market is rather good. There is considerable interest in, and support for, the Rays. The market here supports a minor league team and has been the Yankees’ Spring training site for a very long time.
    But Tropicana Field is really not the best place to put a major league team for this market. And neither is anyplace near downtown Tampa.
    The comments about the Trop’s location are entirely legitimate. To make matters worse, a great many fans who would scrape to save to attend games use public transportation – and there just is not ANY connecting the Tampa area to the field.
    The suggestion that a new stadium be located east of Tampa near Kissimmee are really bad – that only replicates in another direction the poor location of the Rays’ current stadium. While it might not be such a bad idea to set the a new stadium near the fairgrounds in southeast Tampa, the problem is that again highway access is not ideal, and neither is there any reasonable public transportation to that vicinity.
    Tampa, of course, in general lacks substantive public transportation (it seems to have the philosophy that it serves, begrudgingly, the undeserving poor and the maids and valets of the upper classes). Further, the local road system is quite overloaded . Right now, most people in the Tampa area think that a trip of 15 miles or more is a major commitment. The relative scale of the area along with its poorly-laid-out road system makes the kinds of commutes that some Easterners cover, or any normal Los Angeleno, almost an overnight trip.
    So if a new stadium were to be constructed it should be located with these principles in mind:
    1. Reasonably good access in terms of distance and road/transit services for both the Western Bay Area (New Port Ritchey to Pass-a-Grill, including St. Petersburg and Clearwater), the northern area (Pasco County to Temple Terrace in the Tampa area), and the eastern population areas (Seffner to Ybor City), as well as central Tampa itself.
    2. Relatively open space now with adequate room to develop appropriate surface street and transit way entry/exit routes to existing surface streets, and, perhaps, potential for connection to the someday-to-be built light rail system. The space will also be necessary to accomodate any number of new businesses that could be part of a high-volume sports traffic center.
    3. Physical conditions – the subsurface soil has to be unlikely to suffer from surprise sinkhole developments, while the stadium itslef should at least have a retractable roof on it. Also off-season alternative uses for the facility should be taken into account to expand suitable large event center facility availability in the area and to help pay its grgantuan cost.
    On that list, it appears that a location not too far from the Veterans’ Expressway in Eastern Oldsmar or western Citrus Park or a bit north might do very well. Another vicinity that offers some potential is off I-75 just about where I-275 and I-75 meet north of Temple Terrace – there are some well-located large vacant areas around there.
    In all events, the fan base in this region will support a team with turnout if it is just possible to GET to the stadium, and the stadium offers decent guest accomodations with concessions and related facilities.

  18. 02trublu - Sep 28, 2010 at 11:44 AM

    Economics..look at how many businesses have come and gone, hoping to cash in on the rays fans during games. People are not coming in and frequenting the local establishments. They come watch the game and go. When I go to a game, we spend on the average up to $200.00, and that is not during the “premium” games, or club level seats. So how many games should I go to before I start skimping on other financial priorities, and obligations. Do the math. Its a difficult time for everyone. The sadium isn’t that bad. Yankee Stadium isn’t standing on the French Riviera either.

  19. Der Lange - Sep 28, 2010 at 11:46 AM

    Actually, the Tampa Bay baseball market is rather good. There is considerable interest in, and support for, the Rays. The market here supports a minor league team and has been the Yankees’ Spring training site for a very long time.
    But Tropicana Field is really not the best place to put a major league team for this market. And neither is anyplace near downtown Tampa.
    The comments about the Trop’s location are entirely legitimate. To make matters worse, a great many fans who would scrape to save to attend games use public transportation – and there just is not ANY connecting the Tampa area to the field.
    The suggestion that a new stadium be located east of Tampa near Kissimmee are really bad – that only replicates in another direction the poor location of the Rays’ current stadium. While it might not be such a bad idea to set the a new stadium near the fairgrounds in southeast Tampa, the problem is that again highway access is not ideal, and neither is there any reasonable public transportation to that vicinity.
    Tampa, of course, in general lacks substantive public transportation (it seems to have the philosophy that it serves, begrudgingly, the undeserving poor and the maids and valets of the upper classes). Further, the local road system is quite overloaded . Right now, most people in the Tampa area think that a trip of 15 miles or more is a major commitment. The relative scale of the area along with its poorly-laid-out road system makes the kinds of commutes that some Easterners cover, or any normal Los Angeleno, almost an overnight trip.
    So if a new stadium were to be constructed it should be located with these principles in mind:
    1. Reasonably good access in terms of distance and road/transit services for both the Western Bay Area (New Port Ritchey to Pass-a-Grill, including St. Petersburg and Clearwater), the northern area (Pasco County to Temple Terrace in the Tampa area), and the eastern population areas (Seffner to Ybor City), as well as central Tampa itself.
    2. Relatively open space now with adequate room to develop appropriate surface street and transit way entry/exit routes to existing surface streets, and, perhaps, potential for connection to the someday-to-be built light rail system. The space will also be necessary to accomodate any number of new businesses that could be part of a high-volume sports traffic center.
    3. Physical conditions – the subsurface soil has to be unlikely to suffer from surprise sinkhole developments, while the stadium itslef should at least have a retractable roof on it. Also off-season alternative uses for the facility should be taken into account to expand suitable large event center facility availability in the area and to help pay its grgantuan cost.
    On that list, it appears that a location not too far from the Veterans’ Expressway in Eastern Oldsmar or western Citrus Park or a bit north might do very well. Another vicinity that offers some potential is off I-75 just about where I-275 and I-75 meet north of Temple Terrace – there are some well-located large vacant areas around there.
    In all events, the fan base in this region will support a team with turnout if it is just possible to GET to the stadium, and the stadium offers decent guest accomodations with concessions and related facilities.

  20. clancy11 - Sep 28, 2010 at 11:48 AM

    All this talk about the Rays…can someone tell me the reason Atlanta isn’t getting any support? They led the east most of the season and yet their stadium was half empty all season. Don’t get it.

  21. Church of the Perpetually Outraged - Sep 28, 2010 at 11:58 AM

    While it’s possible that the Trop is in a bad area, that can’t be the sole reason people aren’t visiting? Yankee Stadium isn’t in one of the nicer areas of NYC, and while 161st street station looks nice on the D train, you only need to travel to the stop before (155th) or after (168th) to see what the Bronx really looks like.

  22. Craig Calcaterra - Sep 28, 2010 at 11:58 AM

    Braves attendance has always been fickle. It’s a football town, first and foremost. They drew when winning was a novelty in the early to mid 90s, and then the new park provided a nice bump for a while, but there has never been passionate fandom for the Braves in Atlanta.
    I think Braves fans deserve more flack for their not showing up than Rays fans do. Because we know that, at least sometimes, there really are Braves fans.

  23. Old Gator - Sep 28, 2010 at 12:04 PM

    Thanks “Steve” – it’s funny, but I could say exactly the same thing about George Will’s writing. Anyway, confusion is a sign of alertness. If you’re not confused, you aren’t paying attention.

  24. Pueo - Sep 28, 2010 at 12:09 PM

    The stadium is not in Tampa.

  25. Old Gator - Sep 28, 2010 at 12:10 PM

    It gets even worse when you realize that those swastikas were spray painted on that stripped down hulk by retirees in motorized wheelchairs.

1 2
Leave Comment

You must be logged in to leave a comment. Not a member? Register now!

More HardballTalk
Back to Homepage
Top 10 MLB Player Searches
  1. M. Adams (6687)
  2. L. Berkman (5988)
  3. A. Pujols (5104)
  4. R. Howard (4705)
  5. R. Oswalt (4218)
  1. A. Chapman (3974)
  2. C. Utley (3865)
  3. K. Youkilis (3766)
  4. A. Craig (3452)
  5. A. Rizzo (3200)
Search player news