Comments on: Derek Jeter: full time outfielder? Never gonna happen

By: cktai

cktai — Wed, 26 Jan 2011 08:29:22 +0000

“he also was near the top of the list for chances”

Of all shortstops in the AL to play more then 1200 innings in 2010, Jeter had the fewest put outs and the fewest assists. Next worst in both categories is Cesar Izturis (212 PO vs 182 and 382 A vs 365) who was involved in 57 more outs despite playing 50 innings less.

By: cktai

cktai — Wed, 26 Jan 2011 08:17:46 +0000

“Science was certain the world was flat right up until it was certain that the world was round.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth

By: JBerardi

JBerardi — Wed, 26 Jan 2011 03:12:05 +0000

Tell me, exactly what kind of reactions did you hope your “fantasy fagots” comment would inspire?

By: JBerardi

JBerardi — Wed, 26 Jan 2011 03:01:03 +0000

“Science was certain the world was flat right up until it was certain that the world was round.”

And by gum, one of these days they’ll declare it flat again!

Seriously though, that’s not even close to being an accurate statement.

By: Kevin S.

Kevin S. — Wed, 26 Jan 2011 02:38:36 +0000

And I’m just saying, in response to your question about whether or not people actually believe that Jeter became a better defensive shortstop, that people saw an improvement, we knew that Jeter was working on it, and it mirrored the uptick. It’s certainly possible that everybody was wrong, but there are multiple evidence points supporting them.

By: Elwood Larf

Elwood Larf — Tue, 25 Jan 2011 23:38:10 +0000

One minor correction:

Cashman didn’t exactly say he envisioned Derek Jeter moving off shortstop to the outfield, he was answering a question someone asked him about the possibility. Cash responded by saying that if Jeter ever did move to another position, he considered center field to be the optimum destination. Little bit of a different thing. The same thing happened a couple years ago when Joe Torre said something similar, when he basically said that ARod or Jeter would be capable of playing the outfield if they ever left their respective positions, and of course the internet exploded with people thinking Jeter or ARod would be moving to the outfield. Never happened then, ain’t happening now.

By: jh0088

jh0088 — Tue, 25 Jan 2011 23:30:30 +0000

Okay, this Biggio comment is the first solid example I have seen yet in favor of Jeter moving to the OF. Craig, please give him one extra credit point for that one.

But… and I can’t believe I am going to say this… Biggio’s late career when he made that move was right smack dab in the middle of the steroid era and on a Houston team with so many PED question marks I don’t think it translates to Jeter, who as far as I know, hasn’t tried the velvet deer antler yet.

But if he does move to the OF and starts sprinting like Bambi’s mother running from the hunter and hopping over walls to rob homers, then we’ll see if he has any text messages from Ray Lewis on his phone.

By: spudchukar

spudchukar — Tue, 25 Jan 2011 23:30:29 +0000

What is dumb is castigating Damon, then making the case for Jeter’s move by comparing them.

By: spudchukar

spudchukar — Tue, 25 Jan 2011 23:22:46 +0000

Even if Jeter became Willie Mays in the outfield, he still wouldn’t be making any All-Star teams as an outfielder with his offensive numbers.

By: spudchukar

spudchukar — Tue, 25 Jan 2011 23:18:48 +0000

Somewhere “Joltin’ Joe”, is rolling over in his grave!

By: larrytsg

larrytsg — Tue, 25 Jan 2011 23:18:28 +0000

Exactly what I was going to say. Catcher to 2B to CF is about the same as SS to LF. Or maybe more impressive.

Either way, I think Jeter in LF and a utility fill-in in the infield would be a good fit for the Yankees….

By: spudchukar

spudchukar — Tue, 25 Jan 2011 23:14:42 +0000

First off, Jeter did not just suddenly gain wisdom. That is pure poppycock. He has always been a bright, instinctive player. Secondly, even if it is true he worked hard to improve his defense, the change could only be minimal. Thirdly, if he played too much in the hole, by the metrics used by UZR, that would offset his lack of range up the middle. Fourthly, nobody is improving their range after 35. And lastly, the emphasis on the metric criticism was the about face. An aging shortstop cannot go from one year being pretty lousy, to suddenly the next year be above average.
This is a common sense issue. For all the wonderful things Sabermetrics has taught us, the Defense category still needs a lot of work. The stark fluctuations defy reason.

By: nyyankeefanforever

nyyankeefanforever — Tue, 25 Jan 2011 22:55:55 +0000

Thanks dock. …Now, speaking of dumb and hateful, what exactly is dumb about my comment….or are you just trying to illustrate the art of dumb and hateful with your comment?

By: docktorellis

docktorellis — Tue, 25 Jan 2011 22:43:50 +0000

Wow. Easily one of the dumbest comments I’ve seen yet on these (normally above average) comment threads. And that was before I got to the “fantasy faggots” gem. That took it from astoundingly dumb to shamefully hateful as well. Congratulations,nyyankeefanforever.

By: nyyankeefanforever

nyyankeefanforever — Tue, 25 Jan 2011 21:56:00 +0000

I think if you read the other accounts of Cashman’s remarks elsewhere in the media you’ll see he was basically saying Jeter COULD play the outfield because he’s that athletically gifted — the implication being he’d be wasted playing another position like third where far less skills and smarts are required.

He and Damon are less than a year apart and damon has no legs, no arm and can’t hit for sh-t anymore — and he’s playing over 140 games a year and seemingly having no problem finding dumb owners to pay him millions. If Jeter switch to the outfield — this year or in two years — he’d be an effin’ All-Star guaranteed.

And the heck with all these sabregeek formulas that say he didn’t deserve the Golden Glove last season. He led all shortstops in fewest errors and he also was near the top of the list for chances. Bill James and all you fantasy faggots can’t seem to wrap your heads around the idea that those formulas can’t capture the “sense of where you are,” as Bill Bradley put it. If Jeter wanted to play the outfield, he’d be friggin Dimaggio.

By: dudntmatter

dudntmatter — Tue, 25 Jan 2011 20:50:06 +0000

If you get specifiic enough, ANYTHING that happens in sports is unprecedented. As far as Jeter’s acheivements and potential move to the outfield, not that special. Even in New York, you should be able to spell B-I-G-G-I-O. Maybe not a shortstop, but C to Middle infield to Centerfield.

Just saying………………….

By: sabathiawouldbegoodattheeighthtoo

sabathiawouldbegoodattheeighthtoo — Tue, 25 Jan 2011 20:34:10 +0000

Remember last year when Jason Bay was the worst defender in baseball, and then suddenly they tweaked this and that and he was above average? Defensive metrics, much like science of the middle ages, proves that we know some stuff, but we don’t know it all.

Science was certain the world was flat right up until it was certain that the world was round.

By: aarcraft

aarcraft — Tue, 25 Jan 2011 20:30:22 +0000

Obviously not a shortstop, but isn’t Biggio’s move to CF at 37 at least relevant?

By: sabathiawouldbegoodattheeighthtoo

sabathiawouldbegoodattheeighthtoo — Tue, 25 Jan 2011 20:19:08 +0000

My question is this: is this Cashman subtly lashing out at ownership for forcing him into offering a contract longer than he wanted?

By: yankeesfanlen

yankeesfanlen — Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:48:45 +0000

When Bernie left, Beep-beep was still crowing over the fact that a few years before he retained SS and ARod went to 3rd. He never would have accepted it then, just as this will be a tussle.

By: 18thstreet

18thstreet — Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:41:26 +0000

He should have moved to center when Bernie WIlliams left. It made perfect sense.

By: mattraw

mattraw — Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:33:16 +0000

You also have to account for the fact that the offense-first shortstop is a fairly recent thing in baseball history, so it would make sense that there isn’t much precedent for a career SS to move to the OF. Not many pre-Ripken shortstops would’ve had the bat to start as outfielders in their primes, let alone when they were pushing 40.

By: pbannard

pbannard — Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:20:12 +0000

Here’s why I see this as a legitimate possibility: Jeter is a fairly unique situation – after all, how often is it for a 37 year old shortstop to sign a 3 year contract, with an option for a fourth year? I wouldn’t be surprised if the Yankees “made history” with that very act. The Yankees are pretty much the only team that could afford an overcommitment of this sort, where they are paying someone for being a Yankee legend and New York icon. Almost every other player in Jeter’s current position would not get a long enough contract where moving to the outfield for 100 games would be seriously contemplated. Basically, I think that effectively the sample size for the statistics you use is too small to be relevant in this case.

By: Kevin S.

Kevin S. — Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:19:56 +0000

Actually, people do believe it – Jeter is nothing if not a hyper-competitive sonofabitch, Jordan-esque in that manner. Whether he heard the criticisms of his fielding or, in a bout of introspection, realized his own defensive shortcomings, began working hardcore on improving his lateral movement in an effort to increase his substandard range. People began noticing it, right around the time his UZR upticked. In fact, when Pete Abraham was still at LoHud, he talked about Jeter’s improved defense and mocked the fact that UZR said he was bad, not realizing that UZR actually picked up on the same improvement his eyes did.

By: dondbaseball

dondbaseball — Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:17:43 +0000

Those are straight forward stats but how many outfielders played 100 games past the age of 35, 36 and 37, ignoring if they previously played shortstop? Common sense tells you that MOST shortstops are there for their glove and outfielders are there for their bats so there is a reason the subset of ss/of is virtually nil. Yount played 139 games in CF at age 36 and 114 games in CF at age 37. Bonds played 143, 135, 123, 133, 116 and 110 games beyond the age of 36. While Jeter is not Bonds offensively, he is Robin and he is better defensively at this age and going forward than the ‘roided Bonds was. If and that is a big if, Jeter is producing hits/offense like Pete Rose did during these later years, he could be playing left field the majority of the time while filling in elsewhere. It all depends on offense. I mean what else did you want Cashman to say? You would have criticized anything he said on the subject no matter what as you need to generate dialogue on your blog.

By: rbabaseball

rbabaseball — Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:16:44 +0000

Defense is as much about instinct and experience as speed. Jeter was always fast, maybe one of the fastest baserunners in the league when he was younger, but he was consistently rated as a bad defender. He couldn’t get to balls up the middle to save his life. If his speed then didn’t correlate with this defensive rating, there is no reason to think that any lost steps (and he still appears to be in great shape and almost as fast a runner as he was anyway) would detract from it. Rather, it’s more persuasive to think that he has worked at improving it and has benefited from all of the repetitions he has received there over the years. I always thought he gave up much of his range because he cheated toward the hole (perhaps to enable his little jump-throw play), so he might have corrected for this.

Of course, it could be inconsistencies in the data as well, but I don’t think there’s any reason to ascribe it to that over anything else.

By: yankeesfanlen

yankeesfanlen — Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:16:15 +0000

I know by now that ufy is ramping up his numbers machine. I don’t do things that way particularly. Somehow, watching 162 games (and playoffs) he doesn’t LOOK too bad at short, and perhaps Cano with his speed and accuracy is covering Jeter’s sins.
Poor Beep-beep. He brought it on himself with a foolish charade over the winter causing Brian by all accounts to have to bring him down to earth.
So, we’ll see, the Universe is hardly defensively challenged like that team across the river.
28.

By: Joe

Joe — Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:15:12 +0000

He was a rookie at age 18.

By: spudchukar

spudchukar — Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:08:38 +0000

Does anyone actually believe Jeter has suddenly become a better defensive SS in the past 3 years, than he was the 3 before? All this illustrates are the deficiencies in the metrics used. If a 37-year old pitcher suddenly began throwing 5 MPH faster, I wouldn’t champion his new found heat, I’d check the gun.

By: BC

BC — Tue, 25 Jan 2011 18:57:57 +0000

Wow. I thought he was a lot older than that when he made the switch.