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A renewed call for baseball to move the All-Star Game away from Arizona

Mar 7, 2011, 12:30 PM EDT

Boycott Arizona

There was a great deal of controversy over the 2011 All-Star Game being in Phoenix in the wake of Arizona passing its controversial immigration bill last year.  That more or less died down as an issue as far as baseball was concerned after the federal government sued Arizona over the law, suspending its implementation until the matter is resolved. Selig said that was good enough and everyone moved on to other things.

Dave Zirin revives the call for a baseball boycott of Arizona in a column in The Nation today, but he’s not just focused on S.B. 1070. Rather, he believes that All-Star Game should be moved because of it, the Giffords shooting, Governor Jan Brewer’s general mendacity and another new piece of proposed legislation — not passed yet — targeting school children who are illegal immigrants.  Overall, Zirin wants baseball to move the All-Star Game because because Arizona is “dangerous and bigoted” and is  “a state with aspirations of apartheid.”

I’ll say this much: the politics and general zeitgeist of Arizona make me happy I live in Ohio, and it takes an awful lot to make me happy I live in Ohio. That said, I think Zirin and others who are advocating for the All-Star Game to be moved are fighting a lost cause.

Bud Selig is the last man on the planet who would take a stand on anything. Especially a stand that would cost him or his fellow owners money, as moving the game at this late a date would do.  There are contracts in place. Stuff has been printed. The room has been rented, if you will. Bud Selig would play that game in Arizona if God Almighty came down from the heavens and commanded him to move it.  Bud would probably say something like “well, I understand and appreciate His objections, but I’ve been around long enough to know that there are two sides to every issue, so I …” and then he’d just ramble on a while more.

So Selig is a dead end. What would be more effective in my mind would be to reach out to the ballplayers likely to be selected to the game and try to persuade them to sit it out. As Zirin notes, there were already multiple players who said last summer they’d be loathe to participate in an Arizona All-Star Game as a result of S.B. 1070.  Rather than picket the ballparks and demand that Selig do something, why not try to persuade them and others to take a public stand?

That game is going to be played no matter what. If the protests leading up to the game are to prevent it, they’ll be increasingly ignored as the game’s inevitability grows.  But, if some big names noisily beg out, it will be much harder for people to ignore. The media will have to write and report about their absence.  People will talk about it and the reasons for it. And ultimately, isn’t that the point?

  1. bigtrav425 - Mar 7, 2011 at 12:43 PM

    This was a GREAT bill for Arizona and America.There is a really big issue with immigrants obviously and something has/had to be done and this is a start.My only hope is that in this OVERLY politically correct country nowadays,more states and the federal government will adapt similar laws.Kudos once again to Arizona…and you last few sentences are spot on my man

    • marshmallowsnake - Mar 7, 2011 at 1:34 PM

      I live in AZ and the way I see it is as follows…the feds do not care, so someone needs to. If you do not live here, then you do not know a bit about the crime and drugs and trouble that illegal immigration brings into this state. It is horrible… It is a losing battle, because it is that big of an issue, and I am not sure how we can take control of it, but something needs to be done.

      • pwf207 - Mar 7, 2011 at 2:08 PM

        now for a few facts: crime rates in AZ have been decreasing for several years at rates faster than that of the nation while at the same time having increasing rates of undocumented immigration and population growth; foreign born residents commit fewer crimes than native born residents.

        the violence that does occur as a result of drug or human smuggling is overwhelmingly committed by and against undocumented immigrants and would be better resolved by decriminalizing the behaviors that are occurring as a result economic incentives. there is a well established market for both labor that is cheaper than federally and state mandated via minimum wage laws and also for substances whose use and production are controlled by state and federal laws, people like taking recreational drugs. the well documented best policy for curbing violent externalities arising from a black market is to bring them into the legitimate market.

      • marshmallowsnake - Mar 7, 2011 at 4:09 PM

        Until you have a house next to yours raided by the sheriff’s office on a Thursday night while you and your family are home, please do not try to change my mind. Do you live here? Do you have to worry about people smuggling humans, weapons and drugs into a house next door to you, while your two year old daughter plays in the front or back yard? Those are more important “facts” to me than the items you have listed. And yes, before you comment back, all the above has happened to me in the past year. So, being a resident here and experiencing it first hand, I think I have a better understanding of things.

        And who cares if the crimes are committed against undocumented immigrants? It is still crime, still in my neighborhood, and not something that any of us should have to live with.

  2. apbaguy - Mar 7, 2011 at 12:48 PM

    OG is generally harsher in his political criticism than I am, but AZ has been ultra-conservative for a long, long time. When the Republican Party’s candidates moved from Wall Street pragmatic to doctrinaire in the early 60’s, that move was personified by Barry Goldwater of AZ. As far as the all-star game goes, if I were a Latin player, I’d have to think long and hard about going, despite the honor of being selected. Apartheid is good way of describing their current political climate, and while we like to think that baseball is an escape from reality for a few hours, and I’m always loathe to use sporting events as political gestures (ie, not attending the Olympics, for instance), individual decisions to not go are certainly understandable.

    • Jack Marshall - Mar 7, 2011 at 11:55 PM

      Correction: Apartheid is an ignorant way of describing an effort to keep law-breaking non-citizens away from law-abiding immigrants and citizens. Not one ballplayer (or sportswriter) in 100 can tell you what the Arizona law actually says—it is neither bigoted nor unreasonable, not inconsistent with Federal law. And, of course, it has actually worked, sending thousands of illegals out of Arizona to more foolish states, without infringing on anyone’s legitimate rights, human or otherwise. The message of the Arizona law was “if you are illegal, you aren’t welcome.” Wow. The Horror. The fact that illegal immigrants and their families are welcome anywhere is a national disgrace. (And good point there, pwf207—the best way to stop crimes is to make them legal. You should run for Congress.)

      For once, Bud’s cowardice and timidity will have a good result.
      And what the hell does Jared Loughner, mad man, have to do with the All-Star Game?

      • pwf207 - Mar 8, 2011 at 8:27 AM

        Jack, you are aware that the founders of this nation were not “American” right? and that throughout it’s history America has had higher rates of immigration both documented and undocumented than it does now and that somehow it has survived? also how exactly does the arrival of hard working, diligent and more law abiding than native born residents (which is a well documented fact and I’d be happy to provide links) make for a national disgrace?

        also acts are only crimes by virtue of their standing within the legal framework of a group or society. kind of like how alcohol was legal then prohibited then legal again. seriously, laws are dictated by humans to provide for the outcomes they wish to obtain, the status quo has no privileged status merely by being the status quo. the only value of any law are the outcomes that obtain from it and the laws of the united states with regards to immigration, criminalization of certain substances and gun control as well as the demand for cheap labor are what cause the violence and criminality you desire to get rid of. it is a well established fact that pushing activities that a make a lot of money out of the legitimate market leads to increases in undesirable behaviors, whether that be higher prices or violent participants in the new black market. look at portugal’s success with decriminalizing drugs and making them a health issue rather than a criminal one.

        and again I have to ask how is the arrival of hard working, diligent and more law abiding than native born residents a national disgrace?

      • Kevin S. - Mar 11, 2011 at 6:11 AM

        Right, because requiring US citizens of Hispanic descent to carry documentation that most of us keep locked up in a safe to prove their citizenship in no way infringes upon their rights.

  3. Detroit Michael - Mar 7, 2011 at 12:55 PM

    I estimate that the probability that bigtrav25 looks Hispanic is approaching zero.

    • JBerardi - Mar 8, 2011 at 7:59 AM

      Nailed it.

  4. ukraineshaqfan - Mar 7, 2011 at 1:05 PM

    In my dream scenario someone would get into Albert Pujols’ ear about redeeming himself for playing LaRussa’s Latino uncle-tom hand-puppet, though I can think of about 300 million reasons that won’t be happening.

  5. Professor Longnose - Mar 7, 2011 at 1:05 PM

    If you start getting players to commit to not attending the All-Star game now, there will be a mess of an All-Star voting period this summer. People will be arguing about not voting for certain players who won’t go, and then there will be counter-charges of racism against people not voting for certain players. MIght give Bud something else to worry about.

    • Cran Boy - Mar 7, 2011 at 2:27 PM

      Sort of an update on Garry Templeton: “Even if I’m startin’, I ain’t departin’.”

  6. Jonny 5 - Mar 7, 2011 at 1:06 PM

    It must be a terribly racist state, that has to account for it’s lack of illegal immigrants, right…… I heard kids are being suspended for wearing US flag shirts on Mexican holidays. Terribly racist….. Terribly…

    • jrd8523 - Mar 7, 2011 at 1:32 PM

      Kids shouldn’t have been sent home but anyone who sticks up for someone who for some reason has the need to “counter program” Cinco De Mayo on a largely hispanic campus cracks me up.
      I guess you do have that right to counter program the holidays of other cultures if you want though… Those poor kids were such victims. They must have been in aboslute shock when dressing in full patriotic assemble, that was atypical of their typical garb, caused the other students to think they might have had a problem.

      • Jonny 5 - Mar 7, 2011 at 1:41 PM

        Freedom does work both ways, let’s keep it that way. Freedom of speech. You sound as if freedom of speech should only apply on a case by case basis. I don’t know, when I went to school I saw people wearing flags from a number of other countries, as well as our own, what’s the problem with that? What’s wrong with freedom?

      • jrd8523 - Mar 7, 2011 at 2:04 PM

        Common sense should apply at some point as well. The people I saw express national pride did it because thats who they were… Not because they decided to bust them out once a year in response to the fact that the majority of students were going to be wearing Red, White and Green.

        Freedom of speech has nothing to do with it. I have the freedom to wear a Westboro Church shirt to a wake for a military funeral. Doesn’t mean i’m using common sense, and that the typical person at the funeral doesn’t have the rite to be shocked and alarmed at my selfish need to do so… Would I really be appalled at other peoples objections to my obvious disregard? No. Unless of course I wish fishing to be victim.

      • Jonny 5 - Mar 7, 2011 at 2:08 PM

        So, Do you want freedom of speech to be abolished for all, or just citizens?

      • jrd8523 - Mar 7, 2011 at 2:24 PM

        I’d love for it to stay. Would be nice if people wouldn’t hide behind it to incite incidents and provoke. But they can. And they do. And the world keeps on turning.
        Don’t recall saying anything about Freedom of Speech being denied. Recall saying they shouldn’t have been sent home…. Just that its pretty dumb to use it for the sake of provoking and anyone who gets shocked when people respond to their provocations needs some common sense. Most people don’t have that sort of psychological need though.

      • Jonny 5 - Mar 7, 2011 at 2:37 PM

        That’s the thing with freedom of speech, it even applies to the “dumb people”. Or the racist people. Or the people who remove US flags for their Mexican flag at schools. We need to realize this and accept it, or we need to ban freedom and make everyone think like everyone else or lie about it. I like knowing how people really think myself.

      • jrd8523 - Mar 7, 2011 at 2:59 PM

        Right-O. We all have Freedom of Speech and we can hate anyone we want to. Got it.

      • The Baseball Idiot - Mar 7, 2011 at 3:03 PM

        Did you know that Cinco de Mayo isn’t an actual Mexican holiday? I’ve been in Mexico on Cinco de Mayo, and none of the locals knew what we were talking about.

        Cinco de Mayo was started by a professor at a Los Angles campus for his Hispanic Studies course, because the actual date Mexicans celebrate their independence is in the summer.

        Your point isn’t really valid here, and the suspension of American students wearing the flag on their shirts is political correctness gone crazy.

        And remember, two wrongs don’t make a right.

      • Jonny 5 - Mar 7, 2011 at 3:23 PM

        That is the double edge of the sword. But the good usually outweighs the bad. Usually.

    • jrd8523 - Mar 7, 2011 at 3:15 PM

      Since i’m in agreement they shouldn’t be suspended, I dont really get it. Doesnt really change the fact that Mexicans throughout the U.S. celebrate Cinco De Mayo as a day of national pride. You can pretend its not a real holiday while millions celebrate it all you want… Its not politically correct that the Mexican students at the school were making violent threats against the kids wearing the flag gear and the principal in turn responded and acted like an ass. Got it.

      I guess I dont think its really that outlandish to think that kids wearing American flag get-ups in a largely hispanic school that has been rife with racial incidents might have been looking for a reaction. And if you think that you are apparently against Freedom of Speech. My point is that if you want to illustrate racism there are much better examples than the kids fishing to be on the news.

  7. heyblueyoustink - Mar 7, 2011 at 1:11 PM

    To be honest, I think laws that lean too far either way are foolhardy…..while the situation is AZ doesn’t make me want to live there in the least, I can also say on the other hand cities going bankrupt in CA for startes doesn’t exactly make that a desirable place to live in my mind……

    With that being said… issue with players or even the notion of MLB execs boycotting AZ stinks a bit of hypocrisy. Sure, we’re ok with your laws when your buying our tickets, merchandising, MLB TV packages, video games etc……and we’re ok sending folks down to your state to recruit talent……but when it comes to giving back to you, then all of a sudden your belief systems matter?

    In for a penny, in for a pound folks…….plus they’d be punishing not only the residents of the area, but the tens of thousands of people with nothing to do in AZ other than travelling there to catch an all star game…….

    If players, writers, and execs want to enact change, well, last time i checked the players and execs get paid fairly decently……political donations are a part of our system’s fabric…..go enact change that way!

  8. davebrownspiral - Mar 7, 2011 at 1:16 PM

    Immigrants built this nation. However, most if not all had to first pass through Ellis Island, get medical exams and documented before being LEGALLY allowed to enter the country. What the Arizona bill is targeting is ILLEGAL immigration, which by it’s definition is illegal. Why is the hispanic community so hysterical over the fact that Arizona wants to simply enforce the laws that the Federal Government refuses to and doesn’t want to become a bankrupt welfare state like California? What is so awful about wanting to have a safe, orderly and documented immigration policy?

    • Professor Longnose - Mar 7, 2011 at 1:24 PM

      Because the law as is written can be used to harass legal immigrants.

      • The Baseball Idiot - Mar 7, 2011 at 3:07 PM

        Any law can be written so that it can be written to harass anyone.

      • JBerardi - Mar 8, 2011 at 8:14 AM

        @The Baseball Idiot

        Yeah. So we don’t want laws that are written like that. Which the AZ law is.

  9. hectorheisler - Mar 7, 2011 at 1:20 PM

    It constantly amazes me how intolerant “liberals” in the “United States” of America are. And now they want to use baseball to punish those they disagree with.

    As far as Latin players are concerned, they should learn that putting race first is called “racism”. It doesn’t seem that organizations like La Raza understand this. Latin baseball players are first and foremost highly-paid professionals, and should remember their obligations.

    It is also quite evident how poor an education Americans now get concerning their own Constitution. The states are supposed to run America, not the federal government; and the states — as the sovereign entities that created the “United States” — should step in when the federal government refuses to perform its legal obligations — like border control…

    Now, can we please get on with the baseball season??

    • Professor Longnose - Mar 7, 2011 at 1:27 PM

      It’s called a boycott. It’s used by people of all political beliefs.

      The AZ law doesn’t patrol the border, either. All it does is give police an excuse to harass people whose looks they don’t like.

    • Utley's Hair - Mar 7, 2011 at 7:27 PM

      Frankly, it amazes me how supporters of this type of racial harassment could possibly call opponents of it “intolerant.”

      The whole policy puts race first, which, as you say, is called racism—oh…sorry, make that “racism.”

      And what’s with the “quotation marks” you “have” all “over” the “place” up there?

      And the states have powers granted to them by the Constitution, but so does the federal government—which you seem to realize, but reject at the same time.

      You might want to get your story straight before going off on “liberals” in the “United States” of America.

  10. Reflex - Mar 7, 2011 at 1:26 PM

    I’ll believe this is not racist when I see a serious effort made to block illegal immigration from Canada, where estimates range as high as 40% of all illegals(putting it roughly on par with Mexico). Oddly enough, I don’t see Minutemen patrolling our northern borders.

    • schrutebeetfarms - Mar 7, 2011 at 1:40 PM

      I think that once Bryan Adams the singer came in from Canada, the government figured it wouldn’t get much worse and didn’t worry about closing that border either.

      • Kevin S. - Mar 7, 2011 at 9:37 PM

        Replace Bryan Adams with Nickelback and you’ve nailed it.

      • cur68 - Mar 8, 2011 at 12:01 AM

        Bryan Adams and Nickelback like HELL! How did you people let Bieber and Celine Dion in, that’s what i want to know. Talk about misguided, sheesh!

    • ThatGuy - Mar 7, 2011 at 1:49 PM

      Or you can look at this Department of Homeland security report that doesn’t list Canada in the Top 10 of Illegal immigration, much less 40% of it.

      Or this report that says there are approximatly 70,000 illegal canadians in America, which is about .6% of the 10, 500,000 illegals in America.

      I would like to see your sources, because it seems to me they are coming from thin air.

      • Reflex - Mar 7, 2011 at 2:39 PM

        Its all in the breakdown. Most Asian, Indian and middle eastern illegals come in via Canada. Most Eastern European illegals come in via Canada. They are listed as illegals via country of origin, not which border they cross. Illegal border crossings are the issue that the Minutemen and other organizations claim to be opposed to. But they do not target all illegals equally. Their issue tends to be about Hispanic illegals, for whatever reason.

      • jrd8523 - Mar 7, 2011 at 3:33 PM

        Already been touched on but you are using these statistics in a very political way.

      • JBerardi - Mar 8, 2011 at 8:19 AM

        “Using statistics in a political way”? What is that even supposed to mean? Facts is facts.

  11. BC - Mar 7, 2011 at 2:02 PM

    This whole thing is a complete waste of time. Just have the game, and if people want to protest, then they can protest. As long as violence doesn’t break out, I don’t really care.

  12. Ryan Lansing - Mar 7, 2011 at 2:07 PM

    If you’re concerned about immigrants from Mexico taking “American” jobs, repeal NAFTA and get the giant US Agribusiness corporations out of Mexico so that Mexican family farmers can have their land back.
    If you’re worried about violence from the Mexican drug cartel wars spilling over into the US, legalize the growth and sale of marijuana so the cartels lose their American market.
    If you think Americans have more right to be in Arizona than Mexicans have, read about the illegal, imperialist land grab known as the Mexican-American War.
    If you simply don’t like brown people, by all means support laws that make it OK for police to harass them for no good reason.

    • Jonny 5 - Mar 7, 2011 at 2:30 PM

      Very, very good points.

    • florida76 - Mar 7, 2011 at 2:36 PM

      Nobody cares about the Mexican-American war, last time I checked, Arizona was in the USA. Utah is among other states addressing the costly issue of illegal aliens, this issue is about borders and security. Race is irrelevant, the cost of illegals are crippling states like Arizona and California. Other states are having their resources drained by this problem, people are finally waking up about this issue.

      If people feel inconvenienced about being asked for identification, then feel free to leave the country.

      • Ryan Lansing - Mar 7, 2011 at 2:51 PM

        If the cost of anything is crippling states, it’s the cost of not taxing corporations and the ultra-rich. In border states, the scapegoat is illegal immigration. In the midwest it’s unionized government employees. The real problem is that millionaires and big businesses are allowed to buy politicians with the money they should be paying to the IRS.

      • goldstar4robotboy - Mar 7, 2011 at 2:56 PM

        “If people feel inconvenienced about being asked for identification, then feel free to leave the country.”

        Then you won’t mind a warrantless search of your home, right? After all, the righteous have nothing to fear.

      • JBerardi - Mar 8, 2011 at 8:26 AM

        “If people feel inconvenienced about being asked for identification, then feel free to leave the country.”

        Yeah, and if all those black people didn’t like the Jim Crow laws, why didn’t they just leave the south? And why’d the South Africans have to end apartheid? They could have just left!

    • Reflex - Mar 7, 2011 at 2:47 PM

      Most of the drug money is not coming from pot. Its coming from much, much harders tuff, mostly cocaine and meth. Furthermore, legalization also implies taxation. Taxation creates smuggling as it can be delivered tax free illegally. The most smuggled item in the US is not drugs. It is cigarettes. Followed by alcohol. All because of ‘legalization and taxation’.

      Not saying the war on drugs is effective or the correct way to go about it however. Only that all these supposedly obvious solutions are neither novel nor without their own set of drawbacks.

      If we want to address the drug war in Mexico, controlling the flow of assault weapons across the border south would be a good place to start. It won’t solve the problem, of course, but it would force it back underground.

      • Ryan Lansing - Mar 7, 2011 at 3:01 PM

        Good points, but have fun getting the anti-immigration crowd to believe that gun control is the solution to anything.

    • baseballstars - Mar 7, 2011 at 3:15 PM

      I’m fully for the repeal of NAFTA. The American people who are suffering because of it should also understand that those on the other side of the border are suffering as well. I’m also for the legalization of marijuana. And we here in America should understand what happens when you start a real war on drugs – people get killed. Mexico is more dangerous than Iraq. At the same time, I understand that for the most part, taxpayers have to foot the bill for people who have no right to do the things they are doing. Arizona can’t force Washington, D.C. to get some common sense and repeal the laws that only favor the large corporations, so they have to try to solve the problem locally. It annoys me greatly when people who live in a part of the country that doesn’t have to deal with illegal immigration set in their ivory towers, casting judgment down upon Arizona.

      This is a complicated issue, period. I hate it when anyone from either side tries to make it black or white. Or even worse, about race… Mexican is a nationality.

      • Ryan Lansing - Mar 7, 2011 at 3:26 PM

        So Arizona’s response to federal tax law, campaign contribution law, and banking regulation (or lack thereof) is to legalize racial profiling?

      • baseballstars - Mar 7, 2011 at 3:41 PM

        Are you asking me, Ryan? Because Mexican is a nationality, not a race.

      • seeingwhatsticks - Mar 7, 2011 at 4:57 PM

        What is your point about nationality vs race? Do you think when someone who appears Latino is pulled over the cop is making a distinction between the two? Are you only interested in Mexicans and not Guatemalans or El Salvadorians or Panamanians? The legal issue is the border with Mexico but it has become a racial issue with laws like SB 1070 that allow people to be questioned based on nothing other than their physical appearance.

  13. baseballstars - Mar 7, 2011 at 3:09 PM

    Does it even matter what I say? Conservatives (or those who favor Arizona’s initiatives) would vote one way, liberals (or those who favor the illegal immigrants) would vote the other.

    Anyone who compares Arizona to South Africa is a fool.

    • Utley's Hair - Mar 7, 2011 at 5:44 PM

      Last I saw, nobody said anything about South Africa.

      But your descriptions of the issue spell out your views rather clearly, as do your other posts here. God forbid people try to make better lives for themselves as has been the tradition in the U.S. throughout its history.

      Now, for the Native American populations to enact the same policy as these. Oh, that’s right.

    • Utley's Hair - Mar 8, 2011 at 12:05 AM

      I stand corrected—but only on the South Africa reference. Not on my overall comment.

  14. apbaguy - Mar 7, 2011 at 3:09 PM

    The cost of illegals is crippling CA? Complete nonsense. What’s crippling CA is extremely complex, but is not in large part caused by illegals, or state employee unions, or any other right-wing, rich people bulls**t. While those, and dozens of other factors contribute, the larger forces are three-fold: 1) revenue drop from a huge decline in state tax collected on employee stock option redemptions (fewer IPO’s, fewer redemptions. CA based a large part of its budget on this source of revenue.) 2) The mess surrounding Prop 13 and property tax assessments and collections (example, my neighbor, who has 5x my personal wealth, but is over 65, pays 15% of what I do in property tax. His tax is limited by when he bought his property, not the value of the property currently. This causes huge shortfalls in local gov revenue as well.). 3) Increased costs associated with the rapid aging of the population.

    CA has had deficit at least since 1960 (as far back as I wanted to search). Illegals weren’t a problem then, and indeed since 2007 the number of illegals in state has dropped 40% according to the State’s figures. And CA expenditures on welfare dropped by an inflation adjusted $ 2.5 Bn since 1995.

    It’s a big state. But the size of the deficit is roughly the same as Texas.

    Try facts instead of prejudice. There is no basis for your claim that illegals are bankrupting CA.

    • florida76 - Mar 7, 2011 at 10:39 PM

      The cost of illegal aliens is just too great, and any intelligent person knows that, we’ve reached the tipping point. Years of failing to enforce federal law has resulted in the sense of entitlement illegals feel when they enter the country, that’s why the pushback is so intense.

      The crime, cost of social services, education etc., is something this country can no longer afford. Of course, we do have national security implications some people have forgotten about.

      Legal immigration in reasonable limits is fine, but the party is over for illegal aliens. Arizona was exactly right in protecting its borders.

      • Utley's Hair - Mar 7, 2011 at 11:39 PM

        Did you ever think that the reason for the intense blowback might be because common decency dictates that people should not be treated as anything less than human? This law perpetuates racism and racial profiling, plain and simple.

      • apbaguy - Mar 8, 2011 at 12:24 AM

        I take it the 76 in your title is your IQ, since you have failed to provide any basis for your assertions. None. There isn’t one shred of fact in any of your claims. Get lost.

      • Reflex - Mar 8, 2011 at 4:58 AM

        One would think that ‘any intelligent person’ would have facts and figures demonstrating how much of the California state budget deficit is due to illegals. Chances are high that once everything is accounted for, including such things as sales tax income from those illegals while they live and work, that they are a very minor drain on resources. In fact, some studies have found that they are a net benefit as often they work under assumed social security numbers, meaning they pay into the system but never get any tax refund or retire on SS/Medicare.

        The picture is far more complex than either side portrays. But seriously, the “immigrants(illegal or otherwise) are bankrupting the nation’ schtick has as much legitimacy now as it did with the Irish, Italians, Germans and every other ethic group that came to this country over the past two centuries.

        California is broke because of a recession. Dozens of states are in similiar situations regardless of whether or not the share a border with Mexico(or Canada). If your tax base is set on income, sales and property, and all three of those things decline, then the taxes collected will decline(or fail to grow with the rate of inflation). Pretty simple formula, no illegals required as bogeymen.

      • florida76 - Mar 12, 2011 at 9:57 PM

        It’s amazing the level of political correctness we have with some uninformed people on this board. Anyone with half a brain knows illegal immigration is a serious problem for this country, even more so the past decade. Europe is finally waking up to this issue, and so is this country.

        We’ve a tipping point where the cost, crime, and national security concerns must be addressed. Both borders need to be strengthened, and hard working people who want to learn the language must play by the rules. Simple as that.

        Anyone who disagrees with me should spend a week at a border town, for starters.

      • Reflex - Mar 13, 2011 at 1:28 AM

        Florida 76 – What is ‘politically correct’ about requesting actual figures and facts to back up assertions such as yours? You claimed that the cost is too great, but you provide no evidence of that. You also state that social services are being overwhelmed, but independent studies have found no such thing(last time I saw such a study, it found that illegals accounted for something around 3% of social service costs). You state that crime is a problem, but in reality crime rates among immigrant communities, including those heavy with illegals, are no higher than crime rates for non-immigrant communites once one has factored in income levels(crime corrolates to income more commonly than any other factor).

        Seriously, if you want me to buy into what your selling, you have to actually sell it, not simply assert it. Show me the research that has been done that demonstrates that illegals are causing all of the problems you go on about. Anecdotes don’t prove anything, for every anecdote you can provide I can provide one that counters it. Show me in stark figures what it actually is costing us.

        Once that is accomplished, show me how ‘strengthing the borders’ is the most cost effective solution, vs alternatives such as amnesty, migrant worker job programs, easier paths to entry that include better screening, and other alternative ideas. In other words, even if your are correct about there being a problem, that does not automatically make you correct about the solution.

        BTW, I was born in LA. I also lived for a while near Miami. Currently I live in Seattle which has its own illegal immigrants(both from north and south). I’m not as out of touch as you might wish to believe. But I have not seen the problems you assert as being beyond those of any other poor community. I only have to go east to some areas of Idaho to see similiar problems, and no ‘illegal immigrants’ are at the center of it. Or to Arkansas and see miles and miles of drug ridden trailer communities living on welfare.

        And please do not compare to Europe. Quite frankly Europe is flat out racist. I wouldn’t want their ‘awakening’ on the issue of illegal immigration anymore than I’d want their ‘awakening’ on many other things. If your going to look to the EU for an example then perhaps you consider them equally valid on other issues, like say the international court or universal health care? No? Then don’t cherry pick what you think you like about the EU if your not going to accept it all.

      • Bochy's Head/Timmy's Bong - Mar 13, 2011 at 3:37 AM

        Fail. I’ve lived 53 of my 56 years in a border town, and I disagree with you completely.

  15. Walk - Mar 7, 2011 at 11:13 PM

    I honestly believee if you want to come to america and are able to get a job and provide a living for yourself and your family, well welcome to america citizen. There is a process for that however and if you do not abide by it you are in violation of immigration laws. I really dislike the arizona law with its proactive and possibly intrusive nature but i do not live there so i have very little frame of reference to what has provoked it but i am seriously upset that people are trying to use baseball to push their political agendas, as has been stated previously make a political donation and leave our sports alone. About ten years ago i pulled over a vehicle on a federal military installation for multiple moving violations . The people inside were all citizens of another country with documentation from that country and every one was here illegally. Contacting the ins we were told to hang on to them until we had over 50 and then the ins would transport and deport. We let them all go after getting someone to go over the local road signs with them. My point being while the law has been described as draconian i doubt you are going to see a peace officer standing on every corner checking id. If you are afraid of someone knocking on your door and seeing something else going on you probably shouldnt be doing it in the first place. At the very worst what you are likely see is what the leos do already which is a roadblock on a random basis around the holidays. Tldr I am sorry folks i dont like that law, i view it as unnecessary but i dont live in arizona but seriously keep politics away from sports, dont use something as popular as a major sport to advocate any type of politics it will only lead to interference and greater political oversight in the future. None of us want to open that door.

    • Utley's Hair - Mar 7, 2011 at 11:58 PM

      I think a sport with as large of a percentage of Hispanic players as baseball has an obligation to take a stand on an issue like this. Unfortunately, Bud Light is a candy ass jellyfish who failed to do that when he had the chance, so there is a practical impossibility that the game will be moved. However, I feel that there should be protests and they need to be big enough to garner a sizable amount of press coverage.

      Based on your comment, it sounds like you served in the military. If not, then you served in law enforcement, correct? In any event, thank you for your service to the community and nation. It is much appreciated.

  16. Bochy's Head/Timmy's Bong - Mar 8, 2011 at 1:31 AM

    Boy, I come to HBT in part because I usually find more intelligent discussion of baseball issues here than most other interwebbie locales (and of course ’cause Craig is so damn good-lookin’). But a lot of this thread is like being dropped in a steaming shitpile of a Yahoo! comment string.

    apbaguy already did the heavy lifting with a nice takedown of florida76. (Facts: so refreshing for some, so inconvenient for others.) So in the interest of truth over truthiness, I’ll just mention that while there is a kernel of truth in The Baseball Idiot’s discussion of Cinco de Mayo, there’s mostly serious bullshit. The kernel: Cinco de Mayo has traditionally been far more of a regional holiday in Mexico, celebrated more in the state of Puebla (where the battle took place) than in the country as a whole. The bullshit: “Cinco de Mayo was started by a professor at a Los Angles campus for his Hispanic Studies course…” Utter and complete nonsense. But I’m sure he just misspoke. What he meant to say was that Cinco de Mayo has been celebrated by the Mexican/Mexican-American community in the United States every year since 1863 (the year after the battle in Puebla). Yeah, 1863. I’m pretty sure you won’t find Hispanic Studies in the class schedule for that year.

  17. joepags - Mar 8, 2011 at 8:23 AM

    illegal is just that, your here illegal, take your lumps and go back to were your from and enter leagal, i cant afford to pay for illegals anymore, especially when it cuts into my sports!!!

    • Bochy's Head/Timmy's Bong - Mar 8, 2011 at 11:09 AM

      Breathtaking in its command of logic every bit as much as in its command of the English language. I trust you also support “English only” legislation?

      • Utley's Hair - Mar 8, 2011 at 12:22 PM

        Oh, come on, Bochy/Timmy. What part of the comment makes you think joepags supports English usage at all?

      • joepags - Mar 11, 2011 at 8:59 AM

        really, gonna break my stones over being a true american?? your a clown!

      • Bochy's Head/Timmy's Bong - Mar 11, 2011 at 11:00 AM

        “your” vs “you’re”
        Study up and get back to me, you cute little “true american,” you.

  18. marinersnate - Mar 8, 2011 at 6:33 PM


    I just wanted to alert you that the link to this story is broken. When you click it you are re-directed to a political arguement over at Huffington Post.

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