Comments on: That’s the best the Cardinals could do?

By: jaysfan64

jaysfan64 — Thu, 28 Jul 2011 13:33:53 +0000

This is a good old-fashioned baseball trade – both teams got what they wanted…Zep can be a serviceable lefty for years for them either in the pen or in the rotation, Patterson is an okay hitter/pinch runner (just make sure his glove is lost in customs – he almost collided with Bautista on several occasions) and Jackson (if effective) could help put them over the top….we all know Rasmus’ potential (remember when Devon White first came here and the baggage he brought)??? Good trade for both clubs considering the circumstances.

By: okwhitefalcon

okwhitefalcon — Wed, 27 Jul 2011 21:33:23 +0000

We get it – you hate TLR with heat of 1000 suns, he can do nothing to please you no matter what.

I understand he infuriates to the nth degree but he IS the unabashed leader and will remain so until he’s no longer wanted by the powers that be.

The day an organization lets an exasperating yet talented player (and meddling father) undermine a clubhouse – an entire organization for that matter is the day that player must go – no matter how high the ceiling and no matter who’s making out the lineup.

It’s unfortunate the situation got to critical mass, but it did – and I bet a majority of the players/coaches are whistling dixie now the cloud has been lifted.

Jeff Luhnow on the other hand…

By: spudchukar

spudchukar — Wed, 27 Jul 2011 21:30:13 +0000

It is the managers primary job to put on the field the team he feels has the best chance to win. Early in the year, Theriot’s offensive production overshadowed his defensive deficiencies, which turned out to be worse than most thought. Now that he is slumping, justifiably Descalso has replaced him, especially vs. righties. The same can be said for Rasmus, early on his plate discipline allowed him to post a very good OBP, but when that eroded and he imploded defensively, Jay got a few starts. He performed admirably, in all phases of the game. One can argue that it will not last, but this is two consecutive years in which he put up better numbers then Rasmus, and defensively there is no comparison. I know lately, the first thing I do before a Red Bird game is check the line-up hoping to see Jay’s name slated in the center field position. When I do I am assured we have a better chance of winning, and like the manager, that is really all I care about.

By: 5thbase

5thbase — Wed, 27 Jul 2011 21:10:29 +0000

Yunel is basically the only player Cox didn’t get along with over all those years in Atlanta. Yunel was a lazy punk and his teammates hated him by the end and they were ecstatic when he was traded. Good for him if he finally learned his lesson when he got traded for a below average SS … too bad he didn’t learn that same lesson in one of the first eight thousand opportunities he had.

I’m not even a big fan of Bobby Cox, but to pretend like he didn’t get along with players is just stupid.

By: paperlions

paperlions — Wed, 27 Jul 2011 21:05:02 +0000

He was the manager of a team that won….let’s not phrase things to give undeserved credit. That Cardinal team was mediocre, got hot at the right time, and the Tiger’s pitchers committed about 70 gagillion errors in the 5 games.

Let’s also not forget that the Cardinals won zero WS while having a lineup that included the MV3 (Edmonds, Pujols, Rolen) for several seasons. Players win games, not managers….the biggest effect managers can have is a negative one, by failing to play the best players…..TLR magnifies this problem by making everything personal and being petty.

He has been hounding Rasmus since he was a 21 yr old in his first MLB camp….what part of a 70 yr old man bad mouthing a kid in the press represents good managing or leadership? LaRussa has been doing it for years.

By: macjacmccoy

macjacmccoy — Wed, 27 Jul 2011 20:49:35 +0000

Like I said when every team knows that a team has to trade a player the value goes way down. The Cardinals had no choice but to trade him bc if they held out all that was going to happen was the situation was going to get worse and the value would go down even further.

By: umrguy42

umrguy42 — Wed, 27 Jul 2011 20:44:20 +0000

JBerardi, your opinion and chad/trevor’s are not mutually exclusive. I think it’s likely both are true

By: okwhitefalcon

okwhitefalcon — Wed, 27 Jul 2011 20:22:25 +0000

I understand you despise TLR, hell – alot of Cards fans do.

I’m neither a despiser nor a blind follower but realize many more players have thrived than stalled under his reign as Cards skipper.

He’s mishandled a few, no doubt about it.

He also won a World Series title with the likesof So Taguchi, Preston Wilson, Scott Spezio
and a nondescript bullpen with a inexperienced closer as well.

By: paperlions

paperlions — Wed, 27 Jul 2011 19:55:33 +0000

Dude, stop giving yourself a thumbs up.

By: paperlions

paperlions — Wed, 27 Jul 2011 19:54:52 +0000

Agreed, time to move on….as in, they should have dumped LaRussa years ago. Managers just don’t win games, players do. LaRussa is replaceable, talent like that of Rasmus….not so much.

By: hittfamily

hittfamily — Wed, 27 Jul 2011 19:54:50 +0000

I don’t know how Cox gets thrown into this conversation. JD showed up and his his best year, before or since.

By: cintiphil

cintiphil — Wed, 27 Jul 2011 19:53:31 +0000

I like to see the back and forth from all of the Redbird and Blue Jay fans. All I can say is that Patterson is no winner, and didn’t help much in Chicago. Why in St.Louis? Jackson could be a better pitcher than his record, but not a great player. Rasmus has great potential, but just that. He is a trouble maker as is his dad, and they both seem to know more than major league players and coaches. I heard that Rausmu had some sort of run in with Pujols. That would be a major no-no if true. All I can tell you for certain, is that Walt would not want him in Cinti. even with our need for an everyday outfielder. If you think playing for TLR is rough, wait until you run into Dusty on a bad day. Rasmus is JUST potential which he has not lived up to yet. Does the name Jason Bay ring a bell? Rasmus sounds a like like him.

By: okwhitefalcon

okwhitefalcon — Wed, 27 Jul 2011 19:48:05 +0000

Did he have to go? Absolutely.

Would I have liked to see more in return? Sure.

The kid has wanted out for over a year, the manager has wanted him gone at least that long.

TLR haters will be all over this, and maybe rightfully so to a degree. But the player has to be held accountable as well, he never made the proper adjustments to adapt to TLR’s intense style.

Bottom line: you fit in or you don’t and it’s been brutaly obvious this was never a good fit for either party.

Time to move on.

By: paperlions

paperlions — Wed, 27 Jul 2011 19:15:38 +0000

Please be players, someone with….you know…talent, that won’t reach the majors until TLR is retired.

By: paperlions

paperlions — Wed, 27 Jul 2011 19:13:45 +0000

Making one bad decision doesn’t justify another bad decision.

LaRussa hated Boog, so they traded for Erriot, making Boog expendable. That was two bad decisions.

LaRussa hated Rasmus, benched him for Jay (which would be a mistake if it represented a long-term commitment), making Rasmus expendable, so they traded him for a bunch of nothing-special that doesn’t improve the current roster and makes it worse down the road.

For the record, last year Jay had an OPS > .661 in only one month (July), he sucked the rest of the year; this year Jay has had an OPS > .658 for two of the months (May and July). In other words, he has sucked balls for all but three months. Obviously, those good/great months also count, but let’s not act like he is anything approaching consistent and playing full-time he’ll have to make adjustments. I hope he becomes great, I’m just not optimistic. I would be surprised if he had an OPS > .800 for any season of his career.

By: spudchukar

spudchukar — Wed, 27 Jul 2011 19:08:44 +0000

MLB reports that the deal includes 3 other players to be named later to St. Louis or cash considerations.

By: franklapidus316

franklapidus316 — Wed, 27 Jul 2011 19:07:42 +0000

Yes it sounds like the great trade for Jays, but you forget to mention they had to give up Zack Stewart to first get Jackson., so from their standpoint its more or less a good pitching prospect plus two trade chips that were sure to get overvalued by someone (Frasor and Dotel) for Rasmus. Plus they eat money, plus they give up the Frasor/Dotel maybe picks.

By: paperlions

paperlions — Wed, 27 Jul 2011 19:05:35 +0000

Well, then you are wrong.

By: canadaman54

canadaman54 — Wed, 27 Jul 2011 19:02:24 +0000

Not only does La Russa have a poor history with “headache” players, but look at Yunel Escobar this year with Toronto. You don’t read or hear anything about him being unhappy or causing trouble and he is currently one of the most productive shortstops in the league. Cox and La Russa have never been known as every player’s best friend. And maybe it’s good for these players to be in a city where baseball isn’t the primary concern and thus avoid the heavy scrutiny they would otherwise face in cities like St. Louis, Chicago or New York.

Build that dynasty, Toronto. Lawrie’s next.

By: hittfamily

hittfamily — Wed, 27 Jul 2011 19:02:05 +0000

No. I mean he gives quality assessment of the players on the roster and turns mediocre starters like Mo Rivera into great relievers.

By: spudchukar

spudchukar — Wed, 27 Jul 2011 19:00:37 +0000

Ken Rosenthal just said on the MLB network that 3 other players are involved in this deal, minor leaguers, and that they are part of the Cards acquisition.

By: spudchukar

spudchukar — Wed, 27 Jul 2011 18:58:38 +0000

As I have indicated, I sure thought they could do better, however I question the notion that Rasmus is a guaranteed star on the horizon. It is just as legitimate to believe the Cards have come to the decision that Jay is their future centerfielder, and Rasmus was expendable.

By: unlost1

unlost1 — Wed, 27 Jul 2011 18:55:33 +0000

Absolutely:
Ozzie Smith
Jim edmonds
Scott Rolen
Ryan Ludwick
Colby rasmus
J.D. Drew
Anthony Reyes
Brendan Ryan

Need I say more?
THE MANAGER IS THE HEAD CASE.

By: b7p19

b7p19 — Wed, 27 Jul 2011 18:54:24 +0000

If all they wanted was a back end of the rotation guy and a bunch of releivers, they should have called the Padres. They probably could have gotten Harang/Bell or some other combination that could have helped down the stretch.

By: spudchukar

spudchukar — Wed, 27 Jul 2011 18:54:13 +0000

Jon Jay had replaced Colby Rasmus as the Cards center fielder, before this trade. Arguments as to whether or not the Red Birds got enough for him are certainly valid, but with Berkman indicating he wants to return to St. Louis, Holliday a lock for many years in left and Jay in center, where was Rasmus to play, especially if the St. Louis management believes Pujols will sign a long term deal, relegating Berkman to right field. Plus, Allen Craig is returning from the DL in about a week, and provides the offense that Rasmus couldn’t.

By: paperlions

paperlions — Wed, 27 Jul 2011 18:52:10 +0000

You mean that Showalter’s GMs improve the quality of the roster while he is there and decide that they can’t win with him as the Manager so they fire him?

By: hittfamily

hittfamily — Wed, 27 Jul 2011 18:50:20 +0000

Lou Pinella found work for 20 years based on what he did in 1990. Showalter at least leaves his clubs in better positions than when he found them.

By: southpaw2k

southpaw2k — Wed, 27 Jul 2011 18:49:37 +0000

I think a better assessment would be the Orioles will never reach .500 again.

By: paperlions

paperlions — Wed, 27 Jul 2011 18:49:01 +0000

+1000

By: paperlions

paperlions — Wed, 27 Jul 2011 18:48:21 +0000

You have to be smart about going all in, you don’t go all in with 8, J off-suit and justify the bad play by saying, “well, I was going all in”. If you don’t have the cards, you wait for the next hand. This team is not one that is one good player from being a true contender, and they didn’t even get that player in return for Rasmus. Their roster isn’t any better now than yesterday, and it will be worse next year than if they didn’t make the deal.

I fear you are correct in your analogy though, and I don’t think the Cards will be at the table after this hand.