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What was the last World Series winner without a future Hall of Famer?

Aug 17, 2011, 11:41 AM EDT

konerko fenway Getty Images

Twitter questions are tomorrow, but I got a random one thrown my way about five minutes ago by reader BioInFocus:

When was the last time a team won the World Series without having a future Hall of Famer on the roster?

Obviously that’s hard to answer given that, you know, the best players in a World Series tend to be in their prime, so we don’t know if they’ll fall off a cliff, Dale Murphy-style or if they’ll have a standard career arc that takes them in to Cooperstown. So, I look at the 2010 Giants and I can say that, sure, it’s possible Tim Lincecum might make the Hall of Fame one day, but it’s obviously way too early to say.

Before that I look at the 2008 Phillies. Jimmy Rollins could make it. Too early to tell with a guy like Cole Hamels. I dare not mention Ryan Howard lest we get another 350 comment thread.  I don’t think there are any dead-certain locks there, but you can’t discount the idea that someone from that team makes it into the Hall. (UPDATE: Duh, I forgot Utley, who may have the best case of all of them when it’s all said and done).

Going to 2007, Manny Ramirez should be an easy lock for the Hall, but PEDs and his general flakiness will probably keep him out for a while. David Ortiz will be an interesting case. PEDs and affability are a whole other story, after all. If there’s controversy for him it will be over whether a DH should be in with his numbers.

The 2005 White Sox are also interesting. Frank Thomas was on that team, but he didn’t play in the World Series, so maybe he doesn’t count?  Paul Konerko is going to get some Hall of Fame support, though, so we can’t be sure.

If we’re going with dead certainty, I suppose we have to say the 2002 Angels.  There really isn’t a guy on that roster with a colorable case at all if you ask me.

Anyone disagree?

  1. Kevin S. - Aug 17, 2011 at 11:44 AM

    Albert Pujols? Jim Edmonds and Scott Rolen deserve to get in as well, although I suppose it’s an open question as to whether or not they will.

    • Kevin S. - Aug 17, 2011 at 11:45 AM

      Nevermind, I’m an idiot. I forgot the headline when I was reading your post.

  2. bleedgreen - Aug 17, 2011 at 11:46 AM

    I think Utley and Hamels both have a chance to make the hall as well from the 2008 team.

    • Utley's Hair - Aug 17, 2011 at 11:48 AM

      Yeah…what he said.

    • randall351 - Aug 17, 2011 at 11:52 AM

      With that logic you can say everyone has a chance to make the hall, such as Jeff Francouer technically has a chance to make the hall.

      • Kevin S. - Aug 17, 2011 at 11:59 AM

        Chase Utley probably needs another four years or so at his current output, or five/six years at a slightly reduced output. You could give Jeff Francoeur the first eight years of Matt Holliday’s career for his next eight seasons and he still wouldn’t be a Hall of Famer. Which event seems more likely?

    • everybodyhitswoohoo - Aug 17, 2011 at 11:59 AM

      If you had to pick one from that team, I’d guess Utley.

      Rollins has been awesome but not HOF-awesome, it’s way too early to say anything for sure about Cole (I’d guess he’d need several more years like this one and at least a Cy or two), and at the risk of opening the big ol’ can of worms here Howard might need 500 homers to have an argument. (Which, given that he’s at 279, isn’t out of the question, but probably wouldn’t be a smart bet, either. And that’s all I’m going to say about Howard.)

      As for last year’s Giants, Lincecum could make it if his arm doesn’t fall off and he keeps being ridiculous, but if Posey recovers from injury just fine and keeps hitting like he has been, he’s as good a bet as anyone on that team.

    • kellyb9 - Aug 17, 2011 at 12:09 PM

      You’re all forgetting Jamie Moyer! He might play till social security kicks in, and lets face it, with how many kids he has, he might have to.

      • marshmallowsnake - Aug 17, 2011 at 12:36 PM

        He can pitch until he is 80, get 400 wins, and still not be a hall of fame player.

      • kellyb9 - Aug 17, 2011 at 12:42 PM

        @marshmallowsnake – I wasn’t really being serious about that, but I do believe a pitcher should have a shot at the hall based on longevity. It’s impressive to see a guy pitching into his late 40’s with reduced velocity and still doing a hell of a job. I almost think its more impressive than a guy who can pitch in the high 90’s.

  3. kopy - Aug 17, 2011 at 11:52 AM

    K-Rod is probably the ’02 Angels’ best hope. It really depends what he does from here. If he turns into the next Mariano Rivera (pitching very effectively late into his career) you never know, but my guess is no. Tim Salmon was a very good, but not great, player who is eligible next year. However, I’m pretty confident he’s another no.

  4. okobojicat - Aug 17, 2011 at 11:54 AM

    Utley has some work to make it in, but I would argue he’s the most likely. Also, holy crap was Joe Morgan good

    • churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Aug 17, 2011 at 12:12 PM

      Only because it’s need to be repeated every time his name is brought up, it’s absurd how Joe Morgan the player is everything Joe Morgan the announcer didn’t like. The player walked a ton, hit for power and played great defense. Didn’t sacrifice, didn’t waste outs, etc.

    • thefalcon123 - Aug 17, 2011 at 12:20 PM

      Joe Morgan Actual:
      1975: 17 HR, 94 RBI, .327/.466/.508, 67 SB
      1976: 27 HR, 111 RBI, .320/.444/.576, 60 SB
      These were numbers in the mid 70s.
      For a 2nd baseman
      In 1976, only three NL teams scored more than 700 runs

      His greatness on the diamond can’t even be outweighed by his douchiness in the broadcast booth.

  5. Utley's Hair - Aug 17, 2011 at 11:54 AM

    Chase says it’s okay, Craig. He’s so dreamy that people tend to drift away when they think about him.

  6. halladaysbiceps - Aug 17, 2011 at 11:55 AM

    Craig, I would like a response to this question. Who is Paul Boye from Crasburn Alley that was calling for me to be banned from this site via twitter (specifically, a twitter to you)? What is is handle on HBT? He apparently was on this site and was discussing things with me and did not like what I said and had it out for me.. He tweeted this to you that he was having an ulcer talking to me and I should be banned. What’s his handle on this site? He is a disgrace. He is a blogger that writes and makes a buck or two, making him a professional. And he’s tweeting the Chief Blogger for NBC to ban me? Where’s the professionalism?

    I would like a response to this, please.

    • Craig Calcaterra - Aug 17, 2011 at 11:57 AM

      I’m not sure what his HBT handle is, ‘cepts (may be just his name). I wouldn’t take it too seriously. I get a lot of people tweeting me about random commenters, not just you, and unless there’s anything to it, I just let it go.

      You’ve been a good boy. No reason to worry. Some folks just don’t like friction.

      • halladaysbiceps - Aug 17, 2011 at 12:18 PM

        Thank you, Craig. I appreciate that and the response. It make me feel better about commenting, and that I am not walking on egg shells. I know that the Ryan Howard thread was hairy. But, I will try, like my fellow commenter/online friend Chris F., to debate the best I can without getting on too many peoples nerves. Craig, I think you know I just really want to talk baseball. But, when I saw those tweets, I was not feeling good. Am I a little thin skinned? Yeah, that would be correct.

      • churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Aug 17, 2011 at 1:00 PM

        You guys were fine in that thread. Yes I don’t think we’re going to convince each other of our ideas/thoughts, and that’s fine. It’s the personal attacks (which you weren’t doing) that same did that start to step over the line.

    • kopy - Aug 17, 2011 at 12:00 PM

      It’s me!

      (it’s not me)

    • The Common Man - Aug 17, 2011 at 12:03 PM

      ‘Cepts must stay. And I say that while simultaneously rebuffing him, refuting all he believes and and rejecting that which he holds dear.

      • b7p19 - Aug 17, 2011 at 12:06 PM

        But if we’re being honest he is probably only the seventh best poster among Phillies fans on this site.

      • Ari Collins - Aug 17, 2011 at 12:11 PM

        Very nice, b7p19

      • kellyb9 - Aug 17, 2011 at 12:21 PM

        @b7p19 – Actually,I have him tied with kopy in my commenter power rankings.

      • halladaysbiceps - Aug 17, 2011 at 12:26 PM

        Well, that’s nice of you, Common Man. Believe it or not, the last (2) times we had an online discussion we agreed with one another? Hahahaaahah!!! It’s the truth.

      • Chris Fiorentino - Aug 17, 2011 at 12:30 PM

        I would say that I am the best, because of my TDAR(Thumbs Down Above Replacement)…even with that anomaly that was my first post in the Jim Thome for the Hall thread.

      • kopy - Aug 17, 2011 at 12:42 PM

        I feel compelled to break this tie with the bicepts, but the conundrum is if I should say something brilliant and witty, or turn heel and piss everyone off.

      • heyblueyoustink - Aug 17, 2011 at 1:05 PM

        I like to think of myself as the Mr Irrelevant of Phils contributors, at least that’s what my girlfriend calls me.

      • Utley's Hair - Aug 17, 2011 at 2:37 PM

        WOOHOO!!!! I’m only irrelevant out in the real world!!!!! Wait…is there a step down from irrelevant? Probably…and that is likely to be me….


      • heyblueyoustink - Aug 17, 2011 at 2:47 PM

        There is Hair…….when they offer you a gig on “The Jersey Shore”, that’s much much worse that irrelevant 😉

      • sawxalicious - Aug 17, 2011 at 11:25 PM

        Biceps is the Peter Griffin of HBT. Reading some of the things he posts is like watching a train wreck. However, even though I don’t normally agree with him, I respct his thoughts and the fact that he wears his heart on his sleeve.

        What kind of a baby tries to get someone banned from HBT?

        “Mom! He’s touching me again! Mom! make him stop!!!”

        Biceps must stay, as he contrinutes significantly colorful banter and helps make HBT enjoyable to read.

    • Charles Gates - Aug 17, 2011 at 12:26 PM

      The day that a commenter is banned from this site because someone else wants them banned, and not because of the inflamatory things they said, is the day I stop reading this site. But after reading Craig for multiple years, the chance of him getting bullied into banning someone is about as likely me thinking cake > pie.

      ‘Cepts: You and I disagree quite a bit, but I absolutely love your passion and would ask you to keep doing your thing.
      As for Paul Boye, he doesn’t get my page clicks.

      • Utley's Hair - Aug 17, 2011 at 12:32 PM

        I am infuriated by Charles Gates’ comments on cake. He needs to be banned.

        And, Halladay, you’ve been much better since your demotion to the minors. Keep it up and you shouldn’t have anything to worry about.

      • Charles Gates - Aug 17, 2011 at 12:35 PM

        I have an irrational love of pie.

      • Kevin S. - Aug 17, 2011 at 12:37 PM

        There is nothing irrational about a love of pie. Don’t let the cake-eaters tell you otherwise.

      • Jonny 5 - Aug 17, 2011 at 1:19 PM

        Pie is clearly superior to cake. Pie and cake are both pretty equal when you look at their OFP (on face pecentage), but when looking at SLG ( Slobber rate + Licking of chops rate + Grinning while burping rate/ plate appearances) Pie has a clear advantage. Puuulease!!

      • FC - Aug 17, 2011 at 2:01 PM

        Pie is clearly overrated because all of the courses that get on the table before it. If Cake had the same dishes in front Cake would easily out-perform Pie.

      • Chris Fiorentino - Aug 17, 2011 at 2:15 PM

        HAHAHA FC…this is so true. If you think about it though, cake is clearly overrated because EVERY kid has cake at his/her party. So cake has that built in advantage of having kids in front of it eating it millions of times a week. Pie is only found in those small-budget places like local diners whereas you can find cake everywhere.

        Overall, while cake is eaten a lot more, it is also available a lot more. Cake is available 1,000,000 times a day, and is eaten at a 75% clip. Whereas pie is available only 100,000 times a day, but is eaten at a 90% clip. So while cake may be eaten 750,000 times compared to pie’s 90,000 times, pie’s clearly the more valuable and elite hunger reducer.

        Cake is overrated.

      • Jonny 5 - Aug 17, 2011 at 2:23 PM


      • Jonny 5 - Aug 17, 2011 at 2:27 PM


      • professor59 - Aug 17, 2011 at 3:37 PM

        I scientifically studied the popularity of pie vs cake in an unwitting workplace environment. One week I brought in cakes and left them in the break room. The next week I brought in pies.

        I had to throw away leftover cake. The pies were all gone in an hour.

        I don’t have a personal preference, but the evidence is damning.

      • Jonny 5 - Aug 17, 2011 at 4:21 PM

        Professor, as did I. As did I……

      • Utley's Hair - Aug 17, 2011 at 4:31 PM

        That just reaffirms that you work with a bunch of morons. And based on that, they probably juice.

      • kopy - Aug 17, 2011 at 4:44 PM

        I want to do try this experiment on my place of employment. What is the scientific standard for pie and cake? Apple and vanilla/white frosting?

      • yankeesfanlen - Aug 17, 2011 at 4:51 PM

        Did you guys get some announcement that my plane landed at EWR? I’m not even unpacked and have to come in here to make clear the notion that cake, in it’s many delectable varities is the absolute nectar of the dessert world.

        And I know it happened somewhere in my absence, so……
        LEAVE AROD ALONE!!!!!!!!!!!

      • firedude7160 - Aug 17, 2011 at 5:24 PM

        I have to point out a flaw in your argument, Chris. You stated that “EVERY kid has cake at his/her party.” I have had a Pumpkin pie, not cake, from my 5th birthday on (I guess that makes me a pie homer). I can’t be the only person who has made this choice (at leas I hope not). I agree with the rest of your pie > cake argument though.

    • wlschneider09 - Aug 17, 2011 at 12:32 PM

      See HB, we’re with you. Illigitimi non carborundum.

      • halladaysbiceps - Aug 17, 2011 at 12:41 PM

        Thank you. I just wanted to hear from Craig that I was accepted on the site despite my differences with the saber guys. Believe it or not, that’s important to me.

      • Ari Collins - Aug 17, 2011 at 6:40 PM

        Handmaid’s Tale fan?

  7. b7p19 - Aug 17, 2011 at 11:57 AM

    Rollins? I don’t like that one. Hamels is possible, way too early in his career to really know. Utley was the best player of the (non-pitcher) bunch if you ask me, but I’m not sure he’ll get the nod. If Howard can manage to hit 30 home runs a year for a while yet and wins another title or two, he might have a chance (if he can avoid some random writer guessing about whether or not he used steroids, thus being sadled with it for the rest of his life, that is).

  8. Innocent Bystander - Aug 17, 2011 at 11:57 AM

    THT had an article about this in Feb. Very good as always.

    • Ari Collins - Aug 17, 2011 at 12:27 PM

      Excellent article. ’07 and ’04 are no problems for the Sox, thanks to Schilling.

      Pretty sure the ’05 White Sox are a dead lock, if you’re not discounting Thomas for not being on the playoff roster. Unless Buehrle keeps it up into his ’40s and wins 300 games. And there’s no way Konerko makes the Hall; very good player who’s been at his best in his mid-30s, but he was never great.

      P.S. The 2010 Giants had Cody Ross.

      • Chris Fiorentino - Aug 17, 2011 at 12:31 PM

        I also would give Posey a shot if he gets back 100% and puts up good #s as a catcher the next 10-12 years. But TIMMAY and his 2 Cys are almost lock city unless he falls completely off the map.

  9. takemytalentstosoutheuclid - Aug 17, 2011 at 11:59 AM

    Saw a similar article about World Series that had the most potential ( or already inducted) HOF’ers between the 2 teams. i think the article was limited to the last 20 years, but some serious debate ensued. IIRC, the 2001 Yankees – Dbacks, and the 1995 Indians – Braves were two with quite a bit of backing…

    • Kevin S. - Aug 17, 2011 at 12:07 PM

      Hmm. For ’01, I count two Yankees who should be in, one whose likely to be blackballed, and three others with arguments but probably won’t make it. The Diamondbacks had one should be in and one with an argument (that one has lots of arguments, actually :) )

      The ’95 Series is a clear winner, IMO. Braves have four shoo-ins, while the Indians had two already in, a guy who will be in, a guy who’ll get blackballed, a guy who should get in but won’t, and a guy who shouldn’t get in but might.

      • Kevin S. - Aug 17, 2011 at 12:08 PM

        Oh, and a future ninja GM.

      • churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Aug 17, 2011 at 12:23 PM

        Who do you think is going to be blackballed? Rivera and Jeter are shoo-ins, and I think you could make the case that Posada and Mussina should/could be in.

      • Paul Zummo - Aug 17, 2011 at 12:25 PM

        I’m guessing he means Clemens.

      • Kevin S. - Aug 17, 2011 at 12:25 PM

        Clemens will be blackballed, Moose, Pettitte and Posada are the ones that have arguments.

      • takemytalentstosoutheuclid - Aug 17, 2011 at 12:46 PM

        For the 95 Indians,I’m guessing the guy who will be blackballed is Man Ram, but who are you thinking for the others? I’m thinking Thome and Vizquel are locks, and I’m guessing Joey Belle is possible? Who are the others? Hershiser? Dennis Martinez?

      • Kevin S. - Aug 17, 2011 at 12:50 PM

        Murray and Winfield are in (duh). Thome is the lock, Manny is the blackballed dude, Kenny Lofton was the one who should get in but won’t, and Omar is the guy who shouldn’t get in but might.

        Oh, and we could throw in Joey under the “If Jim Rice is in, then…” corollary that would actually be terrible for the Hall if we actually used. His health deterioration was really unfortunate, because he’s got the necessary peak. I definitely had a lot of fun pointing out to numbskulls on the ESPN boards how much more deserving he was than Rice, though.

      • Kevin S. - Aug 17, 2011 at 12:52 PM

        And if Hershisher or Martinez were going to get in, it would’ve happened by now. Pretty much every carry-over from the 80s and 90s that’s been hanging around for a while is about to get squeezed off the ballot by the ridiculous in-rush of HOF candidates turning eligible in the next 3-5 years.

      • churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Aug 17, 2011 at 1:03 PM

        Holy crap I completely forgot about Clemens. I need to stay away from for a bit, everything is starting to blend together.

  10. Paul Zummo - Aug 17, 2011 at 12:25 PM

    Granted it’s too early to tell for the recent winners, but I think Dustin Pedroia is another potential candidate for the 2007 Red Sox. Similar to Utley, If he continues to produce at his current output for another 6-7 seasons, he’ll have a great argument.

    I was about to suggest the 2003 Marlins, then I remembered Pudge Rodriguez was on that team, as well as Miguel Cabrera (although I can see him falling short).

    • Kevin S. - Aug 17, 2011 at 12:31 PM

      Schilling really should be in from that ’07 team (as I alluded to in my ’01 post), and I think that Josh Beckett could have an outside shot if he ages well into his thirties. It’s too early to say anything about Pedroia other than he hasn’t closed himself off from a HOF track yet, and forget PEDs, Ortiz started too late and peaked to low to have any real shot.

    • Ari Collins - Aug 17, 2011 at 12:33 PM

      Schilling’s gonna make it. But yeah, Pedroia’s got a shot if he keeps it up. Always tough for second basemen to stay healthy, though.

      • Charles Gates - Aug 17, 2011 at 12:47 PM

        Pedroia, eh. He’s 27 already and only has 810 hits and 70 HRs, with a career OPS+ of 117. He’ll have to have a pretty big increase to his peak, sustain it until he’s 32ish then stick around to accumulate stats.
        He’s 6 years away from 2,000 hits, which would put him in his age 33 season to help put it in perspective.

      • Paul Zummo - Aug 17, 2011 at 12:55 PM

        I’m not sure about Schilling. It sounds like he’s likely going to make the Hall, but I can see him hanging out in that 60% category for a few years.

      • Ari Collins - Aug 17, 2011 at 3:24 PM

        OPS+ underrates OBP and ignores baserunning. He’s got a 123 wRC+.

        But more importantly, that’s a 23% above average hitter with amazing defense at a tough position. And since he started young, he’s actually ahead of where Chase Utley was at the same age. And with decent longevity he’ll have another 8 years or so.

  11. buddaley - Aug 17, 2011 at 12:41 PM

    I don’t think it possible to anticipate who will or won’t make the HOF among current players. But I think the last team to win a World Series and not have any player in the HOF (with all of them already eligible) is the Detroit Tigers of 1984. There is still a chance for Trammell and perhaps Morris. If Gibson makes it I doubt it will be primarily for his playing career and Whitaker now has to wait for the Old Timers to decide. Some people think Darrell Evans deserves a place, but that seems unlikely to happen.

    Don Sutton was on the 1988 Dodgers roster but did not appear in the World Series. Other than him, no other 1988 Dodger is in the HOF. I suppose Hershiser still has a chance, and Kirk Gibson and Scioscia were on that team as well. I doubt anyone else has a chance.

    • buddaley - Aug 17, 2011 at 12:43 PM

      Whoops. I just remembered. In both cases, the manager (Sparky Anderson and Tommy LaSorda) is in the HOF. Does that count?

    • Kevin S. - Aug 17, 2011 at 12:47 PM

      That is weird about the ’84 Tigers, three guys who probably merit induction (Trammell, Whitaker, Evans) but have been basically ignored by the electorate.

      • churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Aug 17, 2011 at 1:08 PM

        Morris probably will make it, his merits are a discussion for another day though.

      • Kevin S. - Aug 17, 2011 at 1:30 PM

        I don’t think so. He’s got one year to pick up something like 120 votes. After that, he gets squeezed like everybody else.

      • churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Aug 17, 2011 at 3:36 PM

        But with the lack of “deserving” players this year, you don’t think it’s possible?

      • Kevin S. - Aug 17, 2011 at 3:46 PM

        I guess it’s possible, but are we really going to see that many voters who have been ignoring him for a decade change direction just because they don’t have anybody to vote for? There aren’t going to be 146 (25%+1) who remember that his career 105 ERA+ just isn’t that great? Besides, there are still guys to vote for. Larkin probably gets in this year. Edgar and Raines are both going to have their support, as will Trammell, Murphy, Walker and Smith. People are going to realize how ridiculous their Jeff Bagwell stances were. He’s 125 votes short, assuming nobody gained voting eligibility this year. I just really doubt it happens.

    • hackerjay - Aug 17, 2011 at 1:22 PM

      The 1990 Reds don’t have anyone in the Hall, though Larkin will probably get in soon.

      The 84 Tigers are a kind of a sad situation since both Trammel and Whittakker are deserving, but neither one has gotten any traction. I hope the old timers committee fixes that oversight.

      As far as I can tell, the 1981 Dodgers are the only team post playoff expansion that doesn’t have a Hall of Famer, and will never have any chance of it. Garvey is the only one I could ever see getting any traction in the veteran’s committee, and I just don’t think he will ever have enough support.
      I just did a quick look though, so I could be wrong, there might be another team.

      • Chris Fiorentino - Aug 17, 2011 at 2:38 PM

        As somebody else said, I think the 2002 Angels are the last team to definitely not have any hall of famers. I don’t think K-Rod is ever going to make it into the hall and he is really the only guy on the edge of being a possible hof’er.

  12. xmatt0926x - Aug 17, 2011 at 1:08 PM

    I, like most Phillies fans am a fan of Utley but he’d have to have some kick-ass years late in his late 30’s to get close to HOF numbers. Isn’t he at around 1000 hits right now and he’s in his early 30’s already? He wont have multiple gold gloves to help or a high home run total. I’m surprised at everyones confidence in his HOF potential. I would say Rollins actually might end up with a better case as he might end up at around 2600 hits, lots of stolen bases, near top all time short stop fielding percentage. No shot for Howard unless he all of a sudden reverses all of his negative trends. The RBI’s are still there but the HR #’s appear to be trending down and he’s not a young guy and even if he ended up at 500 hr’s, that’s no sure thing for HOF consideration anymore. Hell, you have people questioning if Thome’s 600 puts him in there. Thats crazy.

    • paul621 - Aug 17, 2011 at 1:24 PM

      Interesting–without looking at any stats, I would have guessed Utley was on a better trajectory than Rollins. As a Phils fan, I’ve always considered Utley to be the better player overall, but I guess he’s been hampered by more injuries and a later start to his career. Though maybe it’s just his dreaminess, as noted above.

      • FC - Aug 17, 2011 at 2:13 PM

        This brings up an interesting point, what’s the minimum # of years for consideration to the Hall? Who’s the player in the hall with the least amount of time played?

      • Kevin S. - Aug 17, 2011 at 2:18 PM

        I believe you need to have played ten years to be eligible to be on the BBWAA ballot. Not sure if the same requirement applies to Veteran’s Committee considerations.

      • professor59 - Aug 17, 2011 at 3:58 PM

        Addie Joss had only 9 years in, and obviously lots of Negro League players had little or no years in MLB. And of course, lots of managers, owners, writers, etc. So there’s always an exception available.

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