And yes, I think maybe agreeing to disagree at this point is the best idea. I think Pujols did what he did to keep Carpenter in the game. I also think that no matter what Pujols’ intentions were, Morgan is more to blame, shouldering somewhere between 60% and 99% of the blame for the incident. I guess you disagree, and I will try not to let my befuddlement at that fact cause me to keep dragging out this conversation.

(It also might be easier to agree to disagree if we both didn’t feel like we had to have the last word.)

Morgan was acting like an asshole

Carpenter was ignoring him. There is no way he didn’t hear him yelling.

Morgan was “taking the long way” to the dugout via the third base line

Molina and the umpire were already there. Everyone else was in the dugout/bullpen

Pujols ran across the field yelling at Morgan

Morgan went towards Pujols after Albret said whatever he said

Fielder came over an dragged Morgan away – the benches/bullpens cleared

Maybe everyone would have ran on to the field anyway- we don’t know. But we do know that after he inserted himself into the situation people ran on to the field. So, yeah, he is just as much to blame for the benches clearing going by what happened. Just because he thought he had a reason to run over there it doesn’t make it right , or shift blame.

I though we had agreed to disagree?

“Why is Morgan yelling and swearing and throwing his tobacco towards Carpenter? It’s been several seconds, and he’s showing no signs of letting it go. Crap, Carpenter is a hot-head, if he turns around and sees Nyjer being Nyjer, there’s a decent chance he’s going to get himself ejected, which is not what we want in the ninth inning of a 2-0 game. I need to make sure that doesn’t happen.”

If you look at it that way, I see very little blame falling on Pujols. Even in the most unlikely worst-case scenario (“Man, I hate Nyjer Morgan, I’m going to look for any excuse to start something up with him tonight. Oh look, he’s being his typical a-hole self. Wait, he threw his tobacco towards Carpenter? He’s making this WAY too easy for me to implement my secret nefarious plan to start a fight with him!”), still none of it happens if Morgan has the maturity level of anything resembling a grown man. Even in that scenario, we’re only up to about 60/40 on the Nyjer/Albert blame split. So that’s why I disagree with the “Albert is just as much to blame as Nyjer” line of thought, because even in that impossibly unlikely scenario, it’s still Morgan who started it all.

And then, again, we have to come back to reality. Show me an example of Pujols causing a bench-clearing incident. How about Morgan? Even in a vacuum, I see Morgan as the main instigator here. In the real world, for me, there’s no question.

The only time players need to “protect” each other is when there is actually a physical confrontation. And in those times the protection needs to be pulling teammates away from the fight so they don’t get hurt doing something dumb.

As a side note I love that comic. And we would have been done long ago if you would have just admitted you were wrong

It’s not funny and it’s not entertainment.

And I’ll save you guys the trouble: “HEY YOU KIDS GET OFF OF MY LAWN”

“Pujols’ actions are questionable.” “Pujols was protecting his pitcher from doing something that might get him ejected. Whether that is right or wrong is debatable.”

What you heard:

“running over and inserting yourself into a situation that didn’t involve you and pouring gas on it was the right thing to do.”

Obviously we disagree on the major point. Between that and the fact that you are deliberately misrepresenting what I am saying, I guess we’re done here.

It baffles me that you think running over and inserting yourself into a situation that didn’t involve you and pouring gas on it was the right thing to do.

I can respect the disagreement about whether benches would have cleared without Pujols’ actions. I strongly believe that after Morgan glaring and swearing and throwing tobacco for six or seven seconds, there’s not a lot of reason to think he was going to suddenly mature by 20 years and walk away until he got a response from someone, preferably Carpenter. You may think differently. Neither of us knows for sure.

But it’s the “just as wrong” part that baffles me.

And where did I absolve Morgan of anything? He is a hot-headed jerk a lot of times. I was only saying that Pujols was just as wrong. He’s not perfect.

Nobody knows what would have happened had Pujols not decided to join in the unprofessionalism. But to answer your question — I don’t think the benches would have emptied if Pujols had stayed across the diamond.

Do you REALLY believe that nothing would have happened if Pujols hadn’t said something? Morgan was going to keep glaring at Carpenter until Carpenter turned around and engaged him. Pujols was protecting his pitcher from doing something that might get him ejected. Whether that is right or wrong is debatable. Whether Morgan acted like a complete douchebag is not debatable.

Nowhere did I say that Morgan was right in his actions. He should have just walked back to the dugout. It was 100% unprofessional. But to say that Pujols didn’t escalate the situation which was calming down is the same as covering your ears, closing your eyes, and screaming LALALALA. So, yeah, he did have just as much to do with the benches clearing.

I generally like Pujols. He seems like a very good man, and he’s an all-time great baseball player. However, it doesn’t mean that everything he does is right. He was 100% wrong in this situation.

Thanks for the ad hominem about “homerism or some other ailment”. I’m actually a Cubs fan and I feel the same about both teams. You’re clearly a Cardinals fan, so I understand that you do have a dog in the fight. I’m just pointing out that Pujols was just as wrong and unprofessional to go challenge Morgan as Morgan was to yell at the pitcher.

Pujols’ actions are questionable. Morgan’s are unquestionably unprofessional and bush league. So for you to say that “Pujols started the bench clearing just as much as Morgan did” is incorrect. When I heard the Brewers’ announcers saying it last night, I assumed it was ridiculous homerism. Not knowing your rooting interests, I don’t know if it is homerism or some other ailment that is causing you to say it.

If it was Prince Fielder and Skip Shumaker involved, the discussion would probably be something about how out-of-character it is for Shumaker to act like such an a-hole. In fact, people would probably be using the phrase, “It seems more like something Nyjer Morgan would do.”

Pujols did start this bench clearing incident, however. He jogged over and started yelling at Morgan. If it had been Fielder running over to confront Skip Shumacker then people would be talking about how Prince threw gas on the flames or something.

And I don’t care about their histories- Pujols started the bench clearing just as much as Morgan did and he should be called out for it just the same.