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If you missed our Phillies postmortem over the weekend

Oct 10, 2011, 8:45 AM EDT

Phillies' Ibanez reacts to grounding out to end the seventh inning of their MLB baseball playoff game against the Cardinals in Philadelphia

I know some of you don’t read the site much over the weekend. That’s cool. We’d love to have a more meaningful relationship with you, but we can handle being your workplace fling if that’s all you want of us.

Anyway, given how much real estate has been devoted to the Phillies on this blog this season — and how much everyone seems to have expected me to write 55 posts crowing about the Phillies’ early exit — it’s probably worth pointing out what we had to say about it all since they went down in flames on Friday night.  So:

I can’t say I’m sad to see the Phillies out of it, if for no other reason than Milwaukee-St. Louis is a great matchup due to the freshness on the national stage and the fact that those guys hate each other.  But, yeah, it does feel fitting that we say goodbye to the guys everyone thought was the best team in the game this year.

138 Comments (Feed for Comments)
  1. Clinton Manitoba - Oct 10, 2011 at 8:47 AM

    Philly Fans:
    “It gets better.”

    • Jonny 5 - Oct 10, 2011 at 8:49 PM

      I’d just like to take this moment to thank Ruben Amaro for giving this team the best shot he could at a World Series title. Thanks Ruben.

      I’d also like to thank the entire team for giving their best while enduring criticism and high expectations. Also, that effing squirrel can go go to hell.

      How ironic is it that LaRussa didn’t make a pitching change that last game? I was waiting. The Phillies were waiting. Did he learn something? Will PL cut him some slack? I hope not.

      Anyway, it was an awesome season that built up some expectations, understandably so. I hope this shows people that the baseball gods are not fair. Not fair at all. Don’t worry, the baseball Gods and I have an agreement. 2012 will be different for the Phills.

      • halladaybicepts - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:37 PM

        Pretty sorry of you to reply to a comment, and not actually reply. You simply stated some weak bullshit.

        That’s comment hijacking.

        Now go take a shower, and use that towel around your head to dry off…

      • Jonny 5 - Oct 11, 2011 at 12:22 PM

        Yeah, sometimes things just happen by accident too. Like your conception. If only pappy could have reached that top drawer then we’d be able to comment without having you pick pick us apart for no real apparent reason. You sir are the King of stating weak bullshit, sorry for stepping on your toes there bicepts. Now run along and get back to your normal douchebaggery.

  2. halladaysbiceps - Oct 10, 2011 at 8:55 AM

    I’ll give you my own postmortem:

    They stunk and changes are going to be coming this winter. Mark my words. Ruben Amaro will see to that.

    • Clinton Manitoba - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:07 AM

      I have you marked as saying the Phillies would win the WS…

      • halladaysbiceps - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:12 AM

        I thought a WS appearance by the Phillies was as certain as the air we breathe.

      • drmonkeyarmy - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:17 AM

        I thought they would get there…I’ve learned over the years that nothing is a certantity. In short (5 and 7 games) baseball series anything can and typically does happen.

      • marshmallowsnake - Oct 10, 2011 at 12:13 PM

        And I thought the Red Sox would be there too…just goes to show that paper means nothing…

    • 18thstreet - Oct 10, 2011 at 10:20 AM

      They lost 3 out of 5 games. Their losses were close. They once scored 11 runs. They actually outscored their opponents. Halladay lost a game 1-0, pitching brilliantly. Madson was great.

      You’re an idiot.

      • marshmallowsnake - Oct 10, 2011 at 12:14 PM

        But they lost. With that rotation, the world expected them to breeze through the playoffs, especially the 5 game series.

    • lazlosother - Oct 10, 2011 at 10:49 AM

      They “stunk”? They won 102 games and went the full 5 against a very hot team in the ALDS, losing a close one to a legitimate ace. No team wins every series in the regular season, and any team can lose one in the post season.

      The problem isn’t that the Phills “stunk”, it is unrealistic expectations. I’m a NY fan and some of you guys sound like the most obnoxious NY fans – you know, the ones who think NY should be able to trade AJ for King Felix, straight up, or that Lee would pitch in NY because everyone wants to.

  3. 1historian - Oct 10, 2011 at 8:57 AM

    what do you mean by using the word ‘postmortem’?

    Most of us out here laughed like hell for 2 days or more.

    Certainly not less.

  4. drmonkeyarmy - Oct 10, 2011 at 8:57 AM

    I still think the Phillies were the best team in baseball this season. Although excessively disappointed at the early exit, I also know that a 5 game sample size that represents 3% of the entire season often does not produce the best team winning. Sure many of us thought the Phillies would win the World Series but is that not the hope/expectation of most of the fan bases of good teams? I think think the “foregone conclusion” notion is bullshit. From my expereince it seems to me to be another problem with perception vs reality. Just because people think/expect their team to win and make statements/comments to that effect, so does not mean they think the conclusion is foregone. As I recall, it was more facetious comments by media members once Lee was signed that made such claims. For whatever reason that became the perception. But whatever, don’t let the facts get in the way.

    • halladaysbiceps - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:01 AM

      Agreed, Good Doctor. I think the national and local Philly media needs to take some blame for pumping this team up to be the 27′ Yankees, when they clearly weren’t. It was far from a certainty that they would win it all. The media hype was a bit excessive.

      • drmonkeyarmy - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:05 AM

        I didn’t really follow the local media hype. The only two I read were Gelb and Murphy…who were pretty balanced and level headed in their reporting.

      • Clinton Manitoba - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:06 AM

        And the fans had nothing at all to do with the hype?

      • halladaysbiceps - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:11 AM

        Mr. Manitoba,

        The media hype led to the fan hype. Cause-effect type of thing. I was so hyped about this Phillies team that my bicepts were ripped with all of the 12 ounces I was putting back. Now that the Phillies are done for the year, I waking up to a reality that I want no part of.

      • drmonkeyarmy - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:11 AM

        Didn’t say that. The excitement of the fans played a role but “hype” is generally not produced by fans. It is produced by media members. Furthermore, read the comments after games on or….far more people were people were pessimistic about this team than many would have you believe. But that does not fit into the notion of a cocky, arrogant fan base that thought the playoffs were a foregone conclusion. Again, perception vs reality.

      • vintage1496 - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:16 AM

        Biceps and Dr. Monkey… you both have to be fucking kidding me with those comments.

      • drmonkeyarmy - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:19 AM

        Care to elaborate?

      • kopy - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:32 AM

        Revisionist history, ya’ll.

      • vintage1496 - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:38 AM

        1. The “5 game sample size represents 3% of the entire series” comment – you comment as if this is a new phenomenon unbeknownst to you before the playoffs. Everyone knows how the playoffs work, and you still boasted like an idiot for the entire season so don’t blame it on that.

        2. “don’t let facts get in the way” – nothing you said is a fact, it’s opinion, and you’ve used that exact same line, almost always incorrectly, about a dozen times this weekend.

        3. “it was more facetious comments by media members once Lee was signed” – no, it was loud-mouth comments by commenters on the HBT message board.

        4. “I think the national and local Philly media needs to take some of the blame” – as opposed to you two, who wouldn’t shut up the whole year? How are those two any different? And yes, “the media hype led to the fan hype,” because the ONLY reason Phillies fans were hyping up their team was because of something they saw on tv or read in the paper.

        I respect the both of you and your opinions, but you’re making yourselves look like even bigger assholes by trying to backtrack on everything you’ve said the past year.

      • drmonkeyarmy - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:39 AM

        Perhaps….or perhaps it is the difference between expectations vs foregone conclusion. They are different concepts. Because I and others expected them to win does not mean I (because I can only speak for myself here) thought it was a foregone conclusion and the games shouldn’t even have been played. That concept was media driven. That is the only place I ever, ever, heard that.

      • kiwicricket - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:44 AM

        I posted this down the line…but shit…why not again huh?

        halladaysbicepts – Sep 9, 2011 at 8:53 AM
        The Phillies are so good the rest of baseball should just give up. Seriously, they are fielding a team that will go down as one of the greatest, most talented ever. No one on this board can give a good enough argument as to why the Phillies are not the best in baseball. Just enjoy the ride watching dominance.

        Hmmm interesting…..

      • drmonkeyarmy - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:49 AM

        Expectation vs Foregone conclusion. See elsewhere.

      • El Bravo - Oct 10, 2011 at 10:25 AM

        Thanks to Kiwi for finding that gem. I wish you posted my response from back then. It is fitting. I would like to repost that cepts/heyward exchange each day until the next season begins on every single HBT post from now until then. Suck it Phillyies and suck it to the fans that didn’t want to wait and play the games, but instead, decided hey let’s just say we won back in August. How does it feel? Good? GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      • El Bravo - Oct 10, 2011 at 10:32 AM

        The best back-and-forth commentary ever gracing the pages of HBT. Again, suck it Philly:

      • El Bravo - Oct 10, 2011 at 10:34 AM

        This must be the “delusional” stage of grief from the Phillies Phaithful we are seeing here, baseball friends.

      • paperlions - Oct 10, 2011 at 10:43 AM

        I think the fans themselves share a lot of the blame (if blame is required, for the hype). As with most fan bases, Philly fans have been in denial about the age and associated performance declines of a number of the key Philly players….Utley, Rollins, and Howard are no where near what they were 4 years ago. The fan base, as a group, have actively shouted down anyone that questioned the near future of such an old team.

        The Phillies only did one thing better than any other team, they led the league in the number of Halladays, Lees, and Hamels in the starting rotation. Offensively, they were average. On the bases and defensively, they were below average. The perception problem is that people (in particular those in Philly still thought of the Phillie position players as elite offensively, and they “didn’t let the facts get in the way” of those strong opinions. The offense started off strong because Polanco and Victorino were playing out of their minds, which covered up some short-comings for a while.

      • marshmallowsnake - Oct 10, 2011 at 12:19 PM

        I knew the excuses would come out at some point…but, blaming the media is a joke! Once you heard the name Cliff Lee, along with, signed with the Phillies…the medial lost its control of the hype and like every other Phillie fan, the hype went straight to your head…it is OK to admit it. I did it when the Sox traded for Adrian Gonzalez.

    • drmonkeyarmy - Oct 10, 2011 at 10:00 AM

      I have to make this brief because I have to get back to work. Many Rx to fill today and can’t spend all day debating as usual. I will try to summarize my points/refutes in one nice, neat little post.
      1. I still think the Phillies are the best team in baseball.
      2. I think the best team does not often win the World Series
      3. I had expectations that the Phillies would win, but did not think it was a foregone conclusion
      4. I hyped the team based upon what I saw not what I read or others said. Also, not sure hyped is the correct term because I have no influence over a fan base. Just a dude on a blog.
      5. Not sure where the perception or logic leap to foregone conclusion came from. Only heard stuff like that from national media outlets.
      6. You are probably right, I did misuse and overuse “don’t let facts get in the way”. Sorry.
      7. There is a significant difference between guys on a blog and media members. Sphere of influence and whatnot.
      8. I have always thought baseball series should be longer.
      9. Expectations and foregone conculsions are different concepts.
      10. I have to go…would love to debate this all day. Seriously, I would. But work beckons. Sigh.

  5. John Whitehouse - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:01 AM

    The 1996 Indians weep for the Phillies.

    • Panda Claus - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:48 AM

      As do the ’97 Orioles.

  6. 1historian - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:06 AM

    The ‘facts’ are pretty simple –

    1) ‘The best team in baseball’ is the team that wins the World Series.

    2) When the whole season was on the line the fillies lost 1-0 AT HOME IN FILLY to a wild-card team.

    3) Therefore – the fillies are NOT ‘The best team in baseball.’

    • Clinton Manitoba - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:09 AM

      +∞ agreed!

    • drmonkeyarmy - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:15 AM

      Hah….the best team in baseball seldom wins the World Series. The playoffs are not meant to see who the best team is, only to crown a champion. For instance, the Phillies were not the best team in baseball in 2008, yet they were Champions. The Giants were not the best team last season yet they won the World Series. A few years ago a 83 win Cardinal team won the World Series….they were the best team in the league?

      • randall351 - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:24 AM

        Spoken like a true fan whose team was just knocked out of the playoffs.

      • Clinton Manitoba - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:27 AM

        And I thought all season that halladaysbiceps was the least intelligent Philly fan on here… you can’t be right all the time i guess…

      • drmonkeyarmy - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:29 AM

        Perhaps, I never claimed my perception wasn’t clouded by my “fandom”. I do, however, believe that a 5 or 7 game series is not sufficient to determine who the better team is in baseball. I had this conversation with a St.Louis fan when the series was tied at 1. I think an 11 game series, at a minimum, is the only way to go. Would never happen for a variety of reasons that are fairly obvious, but on a percentage basis would be more in line with the other sports.

      • halladaysbiceps - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:30 AM

        Mr. Manitoba, the feeling is mutual, waste of space.

      • Alex K - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:30 AM

        I agree, Doc.

      • drmonkeyarmy - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:37 AM

        For all the talk about sample sizes on this site, I’m amazed that people could think any different. Do you truly believe that the playoffs determine the best team? That series that represent 3 and 5 % of the regular season are sufficient in determining who the best team is? Maybe instead of having one liners, give a retort to the statement.

      • Clinton Manitoba - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:52 AM

        Sample sizes are for stats, freebies and Halloween candy.
        When we are talking about playoff in any sport, THE BEST TEAM WINS THE CHAMPIONSHIP.
        We are not talking about a season where there was a catastrophic lost, like the team with the best record died in an accident before the championship.
        The Phillies played, and lost, and are not the best team of 2011 (which has yet to be determined).
        Regardless of the size of series, the best team wins the series.

        If the Phillies were so goddamn good they would have won. I really is not more simple than that…

      • drmonkeyarmy - Oct 10, 2011 at 10:05 AM

        You and I will have to disagree. The best team doesn’t necessarily win the Championship…particuarly in baseball. Playoffs aren’t meant to determine the best team they are meant to determine a Champion. Different concepts. Paper Lions put it really well the other day. I can’t recall in what thread though.

      • b7p19 - Oct 10, 2011 at 10:11 AM

        He’s right. The best team in baseball is determined by who has the best record over a 162 game season. A five (or even seven for that matter) game series is not a good way to deterine the best team.

        That said, Phillies fans on here have been crowing about their team winning a World Championship all season. So, they are right that the Phillies proved to be the best team over the long haul, but after a season full of listening to how the Philies were going to win the WS they need to eat crow and enjoy it.

      • b7p19 - Oct 10, 2011 at 10:13 AM

        Also, we heard all year that the Phillies were unbeatable in a short series because of their “4 aces.” That has to make it even worse.

      • Clinton Manitoba - Oct 10, 2011 at 10:16 AM

        “Playoffs aren’t meant to determine the best team they are meant to determine a Champion”

        I can only read this as sour grapes from a Philly fan.
        I worry for people who visit your pharmacy.
        “This is what the doctor prescribed, but I think this is better so it’s what you are getting”

      • drmonkeyarmy - Oct 10, 2011 at 10:33 AM

        You know what Manitoba…fuck you. Don’t confuse my baseball views with that of my professional life. That crap crosses the line. My attention to detail and willingness to help my customers make me excpetional at my job. My views about baseball are irrelevant.

      • paperlions - Oct 10, 2011 at 11:02 AM

        Doc, just ignore manitoba (everyone else does, even Canadians). He obviously doesn’t know what he’s talking about and is conflating outcome with talent/ability.

        Any reasonable person knows that all the WS does is determine who won the WS, it is not designed to determine who is the best team….otherwise you have to be dumb enough to think that the 83 win 2006 Cardinals were the best team in MLB, when they obviously were not (and for the record, I am a Cardinal fan).

        ….as they saying goes, don’t feed the trolls.

      • kopy - Oct 10, 2011 at 11:48 AM

        The only time the best team in baseball didn’t win the World Series was the 1994 Expos.

        Teams can have more losses in the regular season, and still get hot and acquire talent and be “better” in the playoff run. It’s foolish to argue otherwise since “betterness” is a current state and not exactly a tangible fact that can be counted. Sometimes a team can be better than one but worse than another, which makes the “best” team disputable. Related note: St. Louis was 6-3 against the Phillies this year.

      • marshmallowsnake - Oct 10, 2011 at 12:36 PM

        That whole argument on sample size is bunk. When your team has 4 possible #1 or 2 starters in their rotation, those players should be able to rise to the occasion and take out the other team. Granted, it does not happen all of the time, but the odds are certainly in their favor. In fact, Halladay DID this, but the offense was as weak as Howards achillies tendon.

  7. badmamainphilliesjamas - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:20 AM

    In what rational universe should a team that has the best record in baseball not be “expected” to win the WS? That’s not hype. Yet we all know that doesn’t always (or even often happen). Since 1999, the WS has featured the two teams with the best records only once.

  8. halladaysbiceps - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:21 AM

    I look at this Phillies team heading into next year and have come to the conclusion that they need another 3rd baseman (younger) and a better bench. Hence, I think their only movable piece that can net them this help in a trade is Victorino. They can move no one else because no one wants to take on their contracts.

    • drmonkeyarmy - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:25 AM

      They aren’t going to trade Victorino. He was their most consistent player this season and have nobody to replace him. Furthermore, of the regulars only he and Pence are in their primes. I got a feeling they try to improve the bench, but will trot Brown out in LF and Jr. at first base and hope for the best.

      • halladaysbiceps - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:29 AM

        That’s not good enough. You can’t go into next season “hoping for the best”. Polanco is done and needs to be replaced. I don’t care if they have to eat all of his 6.25 million salary in the final year. To get talent, you sometimes have to give up talent. I would not put it pass Amaro to move his only tradeable commodity to make this team better.

      • paperlions - Oct 10, 2011 at 11:07 AM

        The problem is that the Phillies need the talent you want them to give up. They appear to be out of money (happens when you sign Halladay and Lee and need to keep Hamels…oh, yeah….and Howard, doesn’t feel like signing him nearly 2 yrs before his contract expired was something that HAD to be done, now…does it…anyway). The Ninja, as so many people like to call him, has been living off of the talent drafted and developed by the former guy in charge of that stuff (never remember his name). Now, that talent is almost used up and there isn’t that much more of it on the way very soon….so you get an old, expensive team. Sometimes, there just are not any options left, except to hope for the best….maybe it isn’t good enough, but it might be all there is to be had.

  9. drmonkeyarmy - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:22 AM

    On a completely separate note, what is up with this site and google chrome? I can’t access any of the posts with it. I have to use internet explorer in order to read or comment.

    • Alex K - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:27 AM

      It’s working fine on Chrome for me.

      • drmonkeyarmy - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:31 AM

        Hmm, thanks. All the sister sites (PFT, PBT, OTB) work fine for me….just not HBT. Weird. I know nothing about computers so I have no clue how to go about identifying and remedying in the problem.

      • kopy - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:34 AM

        Ditto to Alex

      • kiwicricket - Oct 10, 2011 at 10:06 AM

        Leave him out of it

    • Craig Calcaterra - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:36 AM

      Works on Chrome for me too, Dr. Haven’t had complaints from anyone else.

      Sometimes going to Google site and re-downloading Chrome fixes such problems, but don’t quote me on that.

      • drmonkeyarmy - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:42 AM

        Thanks. I will give it a go later. Hope it works.

      • marshmallowsnake - Oct 10, 2011 at 12:41 PM

        This is what I would suggest too…

    • schmedley69 - Oct 10, 2011 at 1:16 PM

      I have the same problem with Chrome and this site. This site and TMZ brings my browser to a crawl in Chrome, but they work fine in Firefox. Chrome has some issues with Shockwave, which this site probably uses for it’s ads. I’ve tried everything to get it fixed, to no avail. ProFootballTalk is fine in Chrome, but for some reason HardballTalk is not. I think it’s an issue worth looking into for the admins.

      • drmonkeyarmy - Oct 10, 2011 at 1:27 PM

        I fixed the problem. Apparently, my chrome user profile became corrupted. I wasn’t even aware I had a user profile, but I guess everybody does. I followed the instructions on the google chrome site and it was pretty easy. I find the “default folder” and changed the wording to “backup default” and it is working. I have no idea why that works but it does.

      • schmedley69 - Oct 10, 2011 at 1:47 PM

        Thanks, drmonkey, that did the trick. I’ve been trying to get this figured out for months. You da man!

  10. kiwicricket - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:29 AM

    I actually started giggling while cutting and pasting these…

    “Chris Fiorentino – Aug 31, 2011 at 8:11 AM
    Paper…it is what it is. You can continue to look at the spreadsheets while I continue to enjoy watching Ryan Howard night-in and night-out drive runs home and hit bombs. And when he is hoisting up the 2011 World Series Trophy like in the picture from 2008 below, none of us Phillies fans will give a rat’s ass about all the nitpicking articles and comments.

    • drmonkeyarmy - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:33 AM

      So, Chris expected the Phillies to win. He is a fan…should that not be the expectation/hope of any fanbase of a playoff bound team. His belief should not be confused with the foregone conclusion notion. Those are two distinctly separate issues.

      • kiwicricket - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:57 AM

        I think there is a clear distinction between being a ‘fan’ and and spewing obnoxious drivel. You know these divides, Fior and Cept’s clearly not.

      • marshmallowsnake - Oct 10, 2011 at 12:43 PM

        If it did not mention Phillies or Ryan Howard…I would have suspected that post of coming from a Yankee fan!

    • vintage1496 - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:52 AM

      There’s an enormous difference between “expecting you team to win” and damn-near guaranteeing it… for an entire season.

      • drmonkeyarmy - Oct 10, 2011 at 10:03 AM

        Fair enough….see my post above. Have to go now, unfortunately.

    • paperlions - Oct 10, 2011 at 11:13 AM

      If I remember right, that was a discussion about Howard’s obvious decline in skills, including on-base and power (which is all he used to do well)….and the response was that I was a moron and didn’t know what I was talking about because I look at spread sheets and don’t watch baseball (which I probably watch more of than most people via…in part, because I almost never turn on the TV to watch anything else, is on for viewing/listening/background until I go to bed). Anyway, at some point (maybe now), Philly fans will start to acknowledge that the decline of many players that was obvious if you were paying attention to the data can no longer be ignored or explained away.

      The good news is that the loss of Howard isn’t nearly as bad as many Phans think, because he isn’t nearly as good at they think he is….so…cheer up. :-)

      • kiwicricket - Oct 10, 2011 at 11:28 AM

        Entirely correct Paper. Fior could have just left it at that, but had to add the Howard pic and the WS bit. Many thanks to him for this added amusement actually.

  11. kiwicricket - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:31 AM

    Chris Fiorentino – Oct 1, 2011 at 8:35 PM
    There can be nothing better than Ryan Howard hitting the game winning bomb. Nothing. For all the haters and all the negativity about the big man, he showed tonight why he is worth every penny of the $25 million a year he will be getting for the next 5 years. It isn’t for his OBP or how many singles he hits. It’s for times like those, when the crowd is roaring and the pitchers is shitting in his pants. He doesn’t just hit right-handers…he abuses them. Goodbye St. Louis. Thanks for coming out.

    • halladaysbiceps - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:38 AM

      It’s pretty lame that you are going back to previous posts to make fun of Chris F., who is as solid of a fan of his team as there is. Get a life, douchebag.

    • drmonkeyarmy - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:48 AM

      Obnoxious…maybe…But, I still don’t see where the concept of foregone conlucsion is there.

      • paperlions - Oct 10, 2011 at 11:18 AM

        Doc, it is the obnoxious arrogance and the “this single event shows that your years of data are wrong” myopia that people find annoying and that drive the schadenfreude in this case. For the record, not by me….if I spent the time required to bring up every post where people ignored the strong trends in the data where the data were shown to be correct and the eyes of casual fans were not….I wouldn’t have time to do anything else. Either you learn from your mistakes or you keep making the same ones….it applies to understanding baseball just as it does to everything else.

  12. kiwicricket - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:36 AM

    halladaysbicepts – Sep 9, 2011 at 8:53 AM
    The Phillies are so good the rest of baseball should just give up. Seriously, they are fielding a team that will go down as one of the greatest, most talented ever. No one on this board can give a good enough argument as to why the Phillies are not the best in baseball. Just enjoy the ride watching dominance.

    halladaysbiceps – Sep 9, 2011 at 10:56 AM
    The Phillies are by far the best team in baseball and you know it. The rest of these people need to be told this as a reinforcement as to who is the king of baseball.
    Screw the karma crap. This team laughs at that premise because they know they are that good.

    I will give you credit for standing up and taking your medicine Cept’s. I really do. But can you now understand just how obnoxious your and Fiorentino’s posts were this season?

    • halladaysbiceps - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:39 AM

      See my above post and take my advice to get a life.

      • kiwicricket - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:49 AM

        See my below post Cept’s.

      • 18thstreet - Oct 10, 2011 at 10:54 AM

        Kids, kid. As far as we’re all concerned, you BOTH need to get a life.

    • halladaysbicep - Oct 10, 2011 at 2:44 PM

      I hope your proud of yourself. I went from crying for the last 5 hours, to slapping all 6 of my wives and my 4 husbands. The 14 children are next.
      I will need to spend the next 6 hours locked in the barn taking my aggression out on the livestock.
      Kiwi, your next, and it wont be ribbed for your pleasure.

  13. kiwicricket - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:41 AM

    For the record, I am not intentionally trying to be a dick about the Phillies loss. I enjoy(ed) watching them play. I did not troll through the posts looking for stuff, I just happened to have a word doc up at the time. I found the ‘Screw the Karma crap’ simply too amusing to ignore.

    • halladaysbiceps - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:46 AM


      But you are intentionally trying to be a dick and anger us by re-posting what we said previously. What do you expect us to say? We were wrong and pompous? I don’t think so. You will never get that out of me. I’m a fan of my team and will always talk them up if they are dominating and will crucify them when they suck.

      • crimhollingsworth - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:54 AM

        If you’re going to live vicariously through the Phillies and act tough when they win, take your medicine and don’t bitch about it when they lose.

      • kiwicricket - Oct 10, 2011 at 10:08 AM


      • paperlions - Oct 10, 2011 at 11:20 AM

        Yeah, he is being a dick….but he is being a dick by pointing out that others were being dicks for 6 straight months.

    • drmonkeyarmy - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:51 AM

      For the record, I’m not angry at any commenter on here for anything whatsoever…well, maybe that Marty character. That has nothing to do with the Phillies however.

      • kiwicricket - Oct 10, 2011 at 10:05 AM

        I feel the same Dr, I have no problem with you. I don’t see how me re-posting previous obnoxious comments made(which were vigorously disliked at the time) make me some sort of villan or instigator.

    • badmamainphilliesjamas - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:59 AM

      Kiwi, you are being a dick.

      I don’t listen to local sports talk–tune in to mlb network regularly–and most analysts agreed that this Phillies team was built to win the post-season. In a short series, winning teams find different ways to win. In this series, the Phils found different ways to not win. While so much focus is on Howard, what happened to Chooch “Senor Octobre,” Victorino’s defense, and Lee’s 4-run lead? Credit to the Cards, but in such close games if the Phils had picked it up even a little, we’d be having a very different conversation now. They didn’t, and so it goes.

      Any fan in any city would be excited to have a team like this…that’s not hype. Aside from the talent, by all accounts there’s little drama, no divas and an admirable work ethic. They’ve been active in the community. The hate says more about the haters than it does about the team and its fans.

      • kiwicricket - Oct 10, 2011 at 10:16 AM

        What hate? I have no hate for the Phillies. As a man who payed through his eyeballs for 2 games a week, I clearly have no real affliction about any team in particular. I have already said I really enjoyed watching them play. Just a case of two particularly prolific posters looking rather foolish. Nothing more, nothing less.

  14. kiwicricket - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:55 AM

    Why not say you were wrong and obnoxious??? You clearly were. Hence the reaction from others during the regular season.

    You can’t honestly say after reading this crap, it’s normal and well to write such things? Do/did you read anything from other posters(fans from other teams) about such things?

    • Clinton Manitoba - Oct 10, 2011 at 10:05 AM

      Kiwicricket and vintage1496, expect to hear from HB’s mother after the crap you pulled today. How dare you point out how much a douche he/she was this year, HOW DARE YOU!
      Its really not fair to repost in b/w exact verbatim what he/she said. He/She said those things assuming he/she would never be wrong and held accountable. ITS NOT FAIR.

      • kiwicricket - Oct 10, 2011 at 10:18 AM

        I am sorry for my unacceptable actions Mr Manitoba. This will never happen again. I am sorry for my unacceptable actions Mr Manitoba. This will never happen again. I am sorry for my unacceptable actions Mr Manitoba. This will never happen again. I am sorry for my unacceptable actions Mr Manitoba. This will never happen again.

      • vintage1496 - Oct 10, 2011 at 10:35 AM

        Bravo, gentlemen… bravo.

        A few months back I remember reading this article – – and wanting to jump out a window. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy now.

      • drmonkeyarmy - Oct 10, 2011 at 12:00 PM

        Does that article not help to illustrate my point about media hype?

  15. halladaysbiceps - Oct 10, 2011 at 9:57 AM

    I’m not going to fall into a pissing match with any of you on what either Chris F. or myself said about the Phillies. It counterproductive and pointless. I will say this. This off-season for the Philles will determine what they do in the next few years. Big decisions have to be made. I have faith that Amaro and Gillick will come up with a solid plan going forward. I think there will be trades and acquisitions that will be surprising and shocking this winter. They need to shake up this ballclub. This pitching staff’s talent cannot be wasted because the Phillies’ offense continues to be offensive and anemic in the playoffs.

    • kiwicricket - Oct 10, 2011 at 10:23 AM

      How is me re-posting ridiculous obnoxious things you wrote during the season a ‘pissing-match’ ???

      • halladaysbiceps - Oct 10, 2011 at 10:24 AM

        Don’t you have something better to do? You made your point. Enough is enough.

      • lukeslice - Oct 10, 2011 at 10:56 AM

        Enough is enough? Did anyone tell you that when you were spouting nonsense like how winning the World Series was just a formality in just about every Phillies thread all year long? And now you can’t take the heat, haha…typical Philly Fandom. You and Fiorentino are getting exactly what you deserve right now for the excessive hubris jibberish you’ve been polluting our ears with all season. You started this pissing match…now deal with getting pissed on.

        As for the anemic offense…wasn’t this the same anemic offense that couldn’t win for your awesome H2O pitching staff LAST year? And what’d you do, let your best hitter from last year walk and sign another ace? And you really think Amaro is JUST now figuring this out???

      • kiwicricket - Oct 10, 2011 at 11:04 AM

        It’s 8.30pm IST (Indian Standard Time) where I am, I have to drive 10 minutes on a crappy dirt road just to buy a coke. I have hours upon hours still to make you look/feel foolish cept’s.

        Just be thankful there are not more people joining in. Take your med’s like a good little boy, so we can all move on in the right direction.

      • El Bravo - Oct 10, 2011 at 11:21 AM

        Sorry Cepts, but this will live with you and the rest of the Phillies Phanatics all the way into next year. Even through the course of next season, your past cockiness will haunt you. Not until they win it all, which I hope is never, will we relent on pressing the irony upon you of the phate of the 2011 phillies, given your previous commentary, which I will phorever cite from this day phorward whenever I pheel so compelled. Phuck yeah!

    • vintage1496 - Oct 10, 2011 at 10:40 AM

      “Don’t you have something better to do? You made your point. Enough is enough.”

      I think I posted that exact comment to halldaysbiceps in April of this year.

    • mikedi33 - Oct 10, 2011 at 11:33 AM

      On a serious note, I agree Rueben will really shake things up. Also, it was not too long ago that we were saying the opposite that we needed pitching to go with our explosive offence. When this run started Moyer and Kendrick were #2 and #3

  16. philliesblow - Oct 10, 2011 at 10:12 AM

    Hey Philly fans, at least you have the Eagles Dream Team to soften your disappointment.

    Maybe Spike TV can arrange an alternate series between the Phillies and Yankees on a pay per view basis to determine the “real champion”.

    • jeffro33 - Oct 10, 2011 at 10:49 AM

      Sadly, that series would draw better ratings on cable than any of the remaining series would on basic television…

      And just for the record, no one in Philly believes in the Dream Team bs…. In fact, they all hate Vince Young for it….

      • Francisco (FC) - Oct 10, 2011 at 10:56 AM

        And Vince Young was actually misquoted, he said playing on the team was like a dream. Of course the media twisted the words and hyped it. Which of course never happens.

        I firmly believe the Bartman saga doesn’t happen without the media playing it up and replaying it over and over, ditto for Bill Buckner.

        Of course Vince never backed off that interpretation so he continues to be a moron.

  17. browngoat25 - Oct 10, 2011 at 10:32 AM

    The worst part about the Phillies losing is that Tony LaRussa moves on and has another shot at a world series title. Shame on the Phillies for allowing that to happen.

  18. Francisco (FC) - Oct 10, 2011 at 10:52 AM

    Well, I can’t speak for anyone else, but personally I tend to be cautious about those things. Which is why I never took on those bets by El Bravo and Bicepts. I seem to recall Craig calling certain Braves Fans “foolish” (after the fact, naturally) for betting against the Phillies winning the 3 game series back in July.

  19. jeffro33 - Oct 10, 2011 at 10:59 AM

    Now I realize that a champion beats who is in front of them regardless…

    But one has to wonder, if the Phillies just mailed it in and didn’t take out the Braves, letting the Cardinals in, would we even be having this conversation??

  20. jeffro33 - Oct 10, 2011 at 11:06 AM

    One other thing….

    Reading posts from Craig C about the Phillies’ demise is like the neighborhood pest talking trash to you from 1000 feet away right after you whooped his butt.

    • Craig Calcaterra - Oct 10, 2011 at 11:08 AM

      Can you find one instance of me “talking trash” since Friday night? Unless of course you count stating simple facts like “the Phillies offense was bad” and “a lot of people thought the Phillies would win the World Series but they didn’t” to be trash talking.

      • lukeslice - Oct 10, 2011 at 11:16 AM

        I wouldn’t beat yourself up Craig, most of these guys haven’t even gotten to step 1 yet (admitting there is a problem). Still in step zero denial stage.

    • El Bravo - Oct 10, 2011 at 11:23 AM

      I can’t find this trash talk by CC, but it doesn’t take long to find a comment where there’s a Phillies Phan being a douche.

      • halladaysbiceps - Oct 10, 2011 at 11:29 AM

        Just like it doesn’t take long for a Braves fan to talk smack after they choked and didn’t make the playoffs. In between the Braves being ousted from the playoffs until the Phillies losing on Friday, you were no where to be found on this board, El Bravo.

      • El Bravo - Oct 10, 2011 at 11:33 AM

        Untrue. Completely untrue. I commented as I always do and don’t forget I lived up to our earlier in the year bet too. I know how to lose. You clearly don’t. That said, I applaud you for hanging around, but c’mon, if you didn’t expect a large fallout, you were kidding yourself. Misery loves company, so come on in, the water’s warm…sucker

  21. paperlions - Oct 10, 2011 at 11:24 AM

    “If you missed our Phillies postmortem”? Seriously?

    It is now the 2nd man made object you can see with the naked eye from the moon….how could anyone miss it?

  22. phillyphreak - Oct 10, 2011 at 12:04 PM

    This is interesting. Here we have a passionate fan (bicepts) who crowed from the mountain when his team was winning. I don’t think anyone can fault him for being passionate and getting caught up in this team. Everyone does to an extent. What people can/are faulting him for was his over the top in your face boisterousness. This was common with the ChrisF, DrMonkeyArmy and Bicepts trio (and probably a few other this year). If you went to debate with one of them, you actually were debating against all three of them. And I think this is part of what makes the Phillies loss so much fun for some on here.

    But I really do wonder what the reaction would be today/this past weekend if Bicepts was more friendly on these boards (and therefore people didn’t dislike him so much). If he were nice but boisterous, would there be so much shoving it in his face?

    • 18thstreet - Oct 10, 2011 at 12:18 PM

      I posted this over the weekend in another place, but I’m going to cut and paste it here:

      I mean, for six months, we’ve been telling [Biceps] that RBIs aren’t the most important stat in baseball. We’ve been saying the Phillies have amazing pitching, but occasionally have trouble scoring runs. And now, his team loses — a surprising result, but doing so in a rather predictable way — and he thinks the best thing to do is “take his medicine” on behalf of all Philadelphia fans, even suggesting all East Coast fans feel the way he does. Well, he doesn’t speak for anyone but himself.

      [And, now, we’re led to believe that his GM is the only one who will work over the weekend to make his team better. The others, I guess, just show up in March and hope for the best. Mostly, the Phillies are going to need a first baseman. The current GM seemed to sign the old one to a lousy contract. Amaro will fix that!]

      Perhaps, Biceps, this is an opportunity to be less of a jerk. Outcomes can’t be predicted, or we’d all be rich playing the odds in Vegas. The Phillies had a great season. They had some of the best players of this generation. Just enjoy it, and shut up about how much you care. We all care. Sheesh. I mean, there are Oakland A’s fans and Detroit Lions fans and Denver Nuggets fans and DC United fans who care, and care a lot. Everyone does this in different ways. And there are Boston Red Sox fans and Manchester United fans and Pittsburgh Steelers fans who have been there for years, even in the bad times. You’re no better than the rest of us. And if I’m feeling magnanimous, I’ll say you’re no worse. But for six months you drove us all crazy. I hope you chill out over the winter and act like an adult next April.

      • drmonkeyarmy - Oct 10, 2011 at 12:29 PM

        Manchester United had bad times? On a similar note, go Arsenal. Still time to turn the season around.

    • drmonkeyarmy - Oct 10, 2011 at 12:20 PM

      Whoa, whoa….I don’t recall ever making outlandish statements about the team. Most of my debates centered around the meaning of the word value, the concept of the RBI, and the relative merits of Shane Victorino charging the mound. Outside those issues, I don’t recall jumping into CF’s or HB’s debates.

      • phillyphreak - Oct 10, 2011 at 12:22 PM

        My apologies then DrMonkeyArmy, maybe it was those debates that I was thinking about.

      • drmonkeyarmy - Oct 10, 2011 at 12:41 PM

        Probably. I really have a unpopular viewpoint about the word value…which I still hold. I will say that my perception of the RBI has changed as a result of those debates. I still think it holds some value but nowhere near what I did previously.

  23. kiwicricket - Oct 10, 2011 at 12:22 PM

    For the record, I am sorry to the regulars who found any of my posting’s childish or low-brow. Simply found the opportunity to have a little dig at a lesser opponent too irresistible. I feel lesser for having done so.
    (Being called a ‘F#cking moron’ a while back for no apparent reason may of swayed me slightly…)

    Lets get back to Baseball.

  24. spudchukar - Oct 10, 2011 at 1:17 PM

    Craig’s assessment was that the Phillies are a flawed team, and that the hysteria over the 4 Aces overshadowed the weaknesses. One can sure make the argument that they are the least flawed team, and would stand on solid ground. Perhaps the chief error was that the starting pitching would give them the edge in a short series. Not sure that is sound judgement. The other is that great pitching always dominates great hitting. Most times it might but not always.

    As I have stated on many occasions I too despise the 5-game playoff. It must be changed to seven. No way a team that wins 102 games should be eliminated by 3 losses.

    When using subjective terms like “best” arguments are inevitably going to ensue. There is “best on paper”, “best overall”, and “best for the moment”. It is why I chose to wish the Phillie Phans “good luck, and may the team that plays the best win”. The 102 wins was the “best” record in baseball. But the Phillies were not the “best” team in September, foreshadowing not playing the best in October.

    When the play-off format was originally designed many of us expressed our displeasure because we knew that teams that got “hot” late in the season were going to dethrone those that put up the best record for 6 months. Baseball chose a post-season formula that more closely resembled other sports, primarily for economic reasons, but due to the length of a season a lot of success was going to go unrecognized, with the concentration on the play-off system.

    Is it possible that the Philadelphia team was guilty of reading their own press clippings and thereby became overconfident due to all the media hype, backed up by fans who were all too ready to drink the kool-aid. Possibly.

    But the more likely cause of the Phillie defeat lay in a number of misjudgments. The team was flawed offensively, too many easy outs which plays into the hands of a team that pitches to contact. An aging team that was not as good defensively, and whose mediocre running game could be shut down by a strong-throwing catcher. Belief in axioms like “strong pitching always dominates strong hitting”. And finally forgetting that while winning 102 games, they still lost 60. The margin of error is less in Baseball and if you are not playing your “best” you seldom win regardless of your talent level.

  25. cleverbob - Oct 10, 2011 at 1:32 PM

    On days like Saturday morning, I dust myself off and remind myself that Mickey Mantle would never pay my rent.

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