Defensive sabermetrics stats are awful, and they are even more awful on a one-year basis. Even the most ardent adherents admit this. If you take the time to actually read the Field Bible analysis you would notice that they chose as their primary example, a play in the LCS which could only be described as an “intangible”, which unfortunately is under appreciated by most saberfans. Only by watching would one recognize what a great play Pujols made. No stat is going to illustrate that.

Personally, I would have voted for Alex Avila for the AL best defensive catcher. Not to dismiss the excellence of Wieters but many who watch both agree.

I have no obligation to answer any questions, much less ones that I have already addressed, but just for you Alang, I will try this one more time. Because Molina is so difficult to steal on, most teams have all but quit. With certain Cards pitchers, namely Carpenter and Lohse, the two who are good at holding runners, steals are virtually non-existant. So the only theft attempts are against St. Louis pitchers who are poor at holding runners, like Motte or Boggs especially. And the only players who attempt steals are those who are the very best, or in situations where stealing is easier (like 1st and 3rd and less than two outs). So one’s percentages go down when only the best, in optimal situations steal.

A perfect example is the 2011 WS. Kinsler got a great jump off of Motte, and he barely managed to be safe, thanks to a very good call by supposed Cardinal fan Ron Kulpa. In the post-game interview he was honest in his assessment and recognized how close the play was. He never attempted another steal, and was nailed on a pick-off in game 7 when he realized he didn’t have a perfect jump, and knew he was dead meat. Most runners have learned this, so very few try.

I will except your apology regarding the stolen base attempts, I think you forgot that in your last comment.

It appears to be your contention that Wieters throws out a higher percentage of base runners than Molina because Wieters has more attempted steals. however, if this is the case, wouldnt Yadi’s caught stealing percentage have gone up the last few years when he saw more steals?

Again, you claim “defensive sabermetric stats are so awful” yet those same statistics gave yadi an award for his defense 4/5 years. How are the stats awful if they recognize Yadi as a great defensive player?

So, to simplify it for you, you say that Wieters has a better caught stealing percentage b/c he has more people steal against him. If there is a relation between the two, why wouldnt Yadi’s percentage have gone up the last few years when he saw more SBs?

And just answer the question about the awards, I’ve asked you three times, cant you read?

Dude, Really? Maybe next time you ought to spend more than 2 minutes.

Taking quotes out of context, is about as lame as it gets.

What did I take out of context? Ready for this, here’s your entire quote split into pieces. Going to break this down FJM style:

Whatever WPA stands for, it is meaningless.

Source of my first quote, shows you A, don’t know wtf you are talking about, and B, feel informed enough to make a determination on the validity of it. Off to a great start here.

Anyone who watched Game 3 knows that without Pujols’ big night the Cards might well have lost.

Broke this down in the other thread as well. The other two players I mentioned hit HR far earlier in the game so the importance of their score, vis a vis the entire history of MLB baseball, was more important in determining the outcome of the game than Pujols’s HR. When Pujols came to bat before his second HR, the Cards had a 98% chance to win the game. That means in the entire history of MLB, in the hundreds of thousands of games played, in those scenarios, the team that was up with that exact scenario won 98% of the time.

Sure the 3rd Homer was all gravy, but his productivity prior to the final at bat, kept St. Louis from blowing considerable leads.

So you readily admit that the third one was essentially useless. I proved above that the second was useless. So only one HR helped determine the outcome of the game. This is why his Win Probability Added was so low.

Another example of garbage in, garbage out.

Pot meet kettle.

Also, how the F does Gordon win over Gardner? As someone posted on riveraveblues.com, combined UZR/150 of Gordon, Ellsbury and Markakis is 21. Brett Gardner has 29.5 UZR/150.

But oh yeah, this is a legitimate award.

/sarcasm

Again, if “defensive sabermetric stats are so awful” and they awarded Yadi four of the last five fielding bible awards, then what does that say about Yadi? or is it that sometimes the stats are fine?

Also, Yadi: 6 passed balls, 35 wild pitches, 46 stolen bases, 19 caught stealings (65 SB attempts) this year

Wieters: 1 passed ball, 25 wild pitches, 58 stolen bases, 34 caught stealings this year

Last year, there were 3 more (68) SB attempts against Yadi.Two years ago, there were less SB attempts (just 54); 3 years ago 52, ditto. So, if i check out how many attempts each had, it would look like Yadi’s attempts are going up while his percentage is going down — perhaps people are running on him more because they dont think he is that good?

Got another argument? Also it might help to back your own arguments up before you write them. It took me like 2 minutes to see if “nobody tries to steal on Molina anymore.” When, in actuality, MORE PEOPLE try to steal on him.

Look Wieters is a very good young catcher, perhaps the second best in the game. Certainly better defensively than Posey. He just is not in Molina’s class. You know the class of one.

He had a 37% caught stealing, Yadi had a 29% caught stealing…

Hey Church if you choose to demean my comments so be it, but get your shit straight.

Oh you mean when you said, and I quote*:
Whatever WPA stands for, it is meaningless.

Which is precisely what I said above. You didn’t know what it meant and yet you still called it BS.

Whatever the metric it was a ridiculous comparison, and a waste of my time. It was BS then, and it is BS now. Very similar to UZR stats.

I thoroughly explained why it was so, and yet you clearly choose to ignore it. So just go on shining that light of ignorance. Another person we can essentially ignore in these conversations.

*http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/10/24/im-struggling-to-see-how-pujols-big-world-series-changes-his-free-agency-plans/

It would be unfair to compare their respective game-calling cause with the O’s staff it hardly matters. Yadier isn’t just the best catcher in baseball in 2011, he is the best defensive catcher I have ever seen. And yes I am old enough to have watched Bench, Carter, Fisk et al in their heydays.

The logic that says it isn’t a travesty because Wieters is also a great catcher is foolish. Molina isn’t just a great catcher, he is the Van Gogh, the Baryshnikov, he is the Mozart of catching.

So if thats the case … spoiler alert

Golden Glove Winners are:

Pitchers: Mark Buehrle, CWS and Clayton Kershaw, LAD
Catchers : Matt Wieters, BAL and Yadier Molina, STL
1B : Adrian Gonzalez, BOS and Joey Votto, CIN
2B: Dustin Pedroia , BOS and Brandon Phillips, CIN
3B: Adrian Beltre, TEX and Placido Polanco, PHI
SS: Erick Aybar, LAA and Troy Tulowitzki, COL
LF: Alex Gordon, KC and Gerardo Parra, ARI (eh)
CF: Jacoby Ellsbury, BOS and Matt Kemp, LAD
RF: Nick Markakis, BAL and Andre Ethier, LAD

/sarcasm

If there was a shred of credibility to HB’s arguments — that the stat geeks just look at the numbers and choose winners — then the ballots would all look the same. Bill James — who works for the Red Sox — said that Adrian Gonzalez was the 7th best fielding first baseman, and only one other voter had him worse than 3rd.

It justifies my existence.

Think about that. The people who vote are managers and coaches who can’t vote for their own players. The Rockies play the Mets…what…9 times last year? That means, the coach has to base his vote on a player he saw 9 times…MAX! That is an insane way to vote for these things. And that’s why you end up with guys like Ozzie Smith getting the award when he was no longer close to the best (and I say this as a Cards fan), or Palmeiro or Jeter or Michael Young.

But go ahead, criticize the decisions of guys who study baseball, or the Dewan people who actually watch every single play. No, the gold glove makes so much more sense!

It’s not an aberration, it’s a result of having the players and coaches vote on the award. Players basically need to worry about themselves and maybe the opposing pitcher, and coaches are watching their team. Dudes on the Indians aren’t being held in rapt attention by Mark Ellis’ soft hands at second base on their six games against Oakland (yes, he’s gone, but he’ll always be an Athletic to me). When it comes time for those guys to vote, they basically go with someone they’ve heard of. “Best shortstop? What’s that dude with the weird name in Texas? Ah, whatever, give it to Jeter, he’s probably better anyway”.

I mean, if players and coaches knew so much about the abilities of other players around the league, why does every single team use advance scouts?

I’ve always found it ironic that so many writers can blast basement-dwelling stat nerds who don’t watch games and aren’t in the clubhouse, etc, and then turn around and automatically vote for whoever got the most RBIs. It’s like the old principle that the most homophobic people are the ones most insecure about their own sexuality.