Seriously can you cry and whine anymore then what you have? JV earned it by far. Go hate elsewhere.

Don’t care about your mega geek ISO stat either.

You have no idea what ISO is do you?

And how old are you, fool? I’m guessing around 70.

Here’s a new one for you, old man. GFY

And I meant Melky Cabrera, not Miggy. He hit more HRs than your boy Victorino.

Don’t care about your mega geek ISO stat either.

As for the CF position, I’m going strictly by how MLB.com has them listed regarding position. Take it up with them if you object.

The Tigers won their division by 15 GAMES! Verlander’s record was 24-5. If Verlander had gone 14-15, but still pitched effectively, then we wouldn’t be having this discussion and Ellsbury is splitting a close vote with Bautista.

In either case, if Verlander had won 10 fewer games, ***the Tigers still win the division by five games.***

OK, ok, so if Verlander only went 14-15, the bullpen would have been used more, but, given the 2011 AL Central race there is no doubt that if Verlander won ten fewer games the Tigers still could have easily won the division title. What *can* be said is that Verlander made it easier for the Tigers to win their division. And there is some value in that, but an MVP? Na-uh.

Joe Morgan is a moron of the first order when it comes to analyzing baseball, yet he’s one of the best second baseman of all time.

Honestly, how old are you? Grown people don’t use LMAO/LOL as often as you do.

while being considered “slugging”, which would be hitting 20 HRs or so

No one in their right mind thinks 20 HR makes someone a “slugger” or else over half the Yankees team is full of “sluggers”.

The guy was dominant in nearly every start he made this year, win or lose

Was he really? Define a dominant start. Was it the 5 ER he gave up on the last day? Or what about on 5/24 when he gave up 6 ER in 6IP? Or 5 R on 7/15? Or 4 ER on 8/27?

He was the one guy that everyone talked about not wanting to face in the playoffs

Yes, let’s use media cliches to defend a point and not hard evidence.

So you keep on looking up those obscure Bill James-type sabremetric statistics, while I pay attention to what really happens on the field.

Ah the last bastion of the man with no point. Ad hom attacks. Should have stuck with the tried and true mom’s basement though. Kids these days just have no imagination.

Experts, don’t make me laugh.

__
Come back when you get one of those positions. Should be easy considering your low opinion of those chosen to do the voting. I’ll be waiting…maybe falcon can apply along with you.

__
Hardly circular to say that my opinion was confirmed by many (the voters) who know far more about baseball than both you or I. I’ll side with the experts and you can side with the conspiracy theorists.

>.200 ISO (in order)
CF – Granderson, Kemp, Hamilton, Victorino
1B – Fielder, Reynolds, Morse, Teixeira, Pujols, Cabrera, Pena, Howard, Trumbo, Votto, Santana, Konerko, Gonzalez

__
You conveniently left out Torii Hunter, Andrew McCutcheon, Andruw Jones, Vernon Wells, BJ Upton, Chris Young and Miggy Cabrera…ALL listed in MLB.com as CFs and ALL who hit more HRs than Shane Victorino (included on your list). And though not every one of these guys may currently be playing CF on a full-time basis, they are all capable of playing (and have played in the past) a decent CF (while being considered “slugging”, which would be hitting 20 HRs or so). The gap is a lot less than you imply with your weighted listing.

Keep on trying though.

And by god help me if you cite his win total I’m going to copy/paste that response every comment you make.

__
Why would I cite his win total? The guy was dominant in nearly every start he made this year, win or lose. Consistantly, throughout the year. He was the one guy that everyone talked about not wanting to face in the playoffs (never saw anyone say that they were afraid of Ellsbury), which had nothing to do with his win total and everything to do with the fact that he was the most intimidating single player in the playoffs. So you keep on looking up those obscure Bill James-type sabremetric statistics, while I pay attention to what really happens on the field.

And as for your opinion regarding my baseball knowledge, I couldn’t care less what you think, given your robotic approach to analyzing the game. I’m guessing that the “friar” part of your name is because you still haven’t gotten laid yet in your miserable life.

“You even stop to think that pitchers stopped pitching to Gonzalez and started pitching to Ellsbury as the season wore on?”

Again, if you ever read my posts citing ACTUAL EVIDENCE rather than your heresay, Ellsbury wasnot the benefactor of “being protected”. Guys who are supposed to be pitched to in order to avoid another bat in the lineup typically see more fastballs which as not the case here (infact, opposite). Use common sense for a second. Players being “protected” usually are immediately before or after the hitter “protecting”, not multiple spots away in the order. Increased stats? Of course, but to say one benefitted more from the other needs evidence rather than just your opinion.

“I disagree that Ellsbury’s defense is both better and more valuable than Cabrera’s, given that Cabrera likely makes far more putouts at first than Ellsbury does in CF”

wow…just wow. This comment fully explains your lack of knowledge in baseball. Your name fits the bill…

And by god help me if you cite his win total I’m going to copy/paste that response every comment you make.

In fact, Cabrera (while mostly playing 1B in recent years) has logged significant time in both LF and RF, as well as 3B, making him a much more versatile and valuable fielder.

You do know there are ways to look this up right? Here are the last years he’s played each position:

3B – ’08 – 14 games
LF – ’05 – 134 games
RF – ’04 – 100 games

So essentially in ’07 was the last time he played a position outside of 1B full time. He’s not versatile now (and the majority of his defensive metrics back then were bad, but that’s another story).

Plenty of “slugging CFs” out there…Granderson for one, Josh Hamilton for another..and the list goes on. Meanwhile, several teams, including the Rays (Casey Kotchman) get by with a non-slugging 1B, so you can feed into the stereotypes all you want to but they don’t always turn out to be true

I can’t believe I have to defend this, but here goes:

>.200 ISO (in order)
CF – Granderson, Kemp, Hamilton, Victorino
1B – Fielder, Reynolds, Morse, Teixeira, Pujols, Cabrera, Pena, Howard, Trumbo, Votto, Santana, Konerko, Gonzalez

As for Verlander being better than all three of them, that was my personal opinion…an opinion that I stated was confirmed by the AL MVP voters. Better than the opinion of the Ellsbury slurpers, whose opinions were rendered moot by the AL MVP voters

If you don’t think this is circular reasoning, I don’t know what to tell you.

I doubt that you do, instead all you probably do is pore over Bill James’s vastly overrated sabremetrics digests and consider yourself “educated” about baseball. You can call my argument “baseless” all you want to, but in the end my choice was named MVP and yours wasn’t. BTW, when someone bats BEFORE someone else in the lineup, they are considered to be “protected” by the later batter (though not in the “classic” sense). Either way, most pitchers are going to pitch to the leadoff guy as opposed to the #3, #4 or #5 guys, therefore, Ellsbury will always benefit from having guys like Gonzalez, Ortiz and Youkilis (when healthy) hitting behind him. Ellsbury has a long way to go IMO to reach the status of classic leadoff men like Rickey Henderson or Wade Boggs. You can continue to kneel at his altar all you want to, I’ll continue to believe that he is overrated. You can continue to be mad about it, I’ll continue to laugh at you. BTW, I don’t really care what you think about my remarks, claims or baseball education. In fact, you can shove your alleged “blasphemy”, “asinine” and “uneducated” judgment of me up your arse. I’ll continue to smile at the fact that Verlander won the MVP and enjoy the frustration of those who just can’t accept that.

Then the MVP race can be truly opened up to everyone, given that the everyday players would have an award of their own, one that would in effect exclude pitchers and DHs from being eligible, much like the Cy Young does for hitters and fielders.

I’d also like to see an “Ozzie Smith Award” for those true light-hitting but slick-fielding players who save tons of runs by flashing the leather but who have no hope of winning any of the big awards due to the fact that they just aren’t heavy hitters.

As for Verlander being better than all three of them, that was my personal opinion…an opinion that I stated was confirmed by the AL MVP voters. Better than the opinion of the Ellsbury slurpers, whose opinions were rendered moot by the AL MVP voters. So, no circular reasoning there at all, just confirmation of what my opinion was. I trust the AL MVP voters far more than I trust any of you Ellsbury slurpers.

Looks like he had two great months out of six

How do you define great? The last number in each column is OPS compared to league average, so in 4/6 months he was better than 1/3 of the league, 3/6 43% better, and 2/6 almost 90% better. That’s also based merely off hitting which doesn’t include his defense which ever metric has as great this year.

The Cabrera comparisons aren’t valid for two reasons. One, Ellsbury’s defense is far better than Cabrera’s defense, without the positional component factored in. Two, it’s much easier to find a slugging 1b than a slugging CF, so that makes Ellsbury that much more valuable.

Verlander was better than all three of them and the AL MVP voters confirmed this

This is circular reasoning. You think Verlander was more valuable so you would vote for him for MVP, and because he was voted MVP it proves he was more valuable…

The Hank Aaron Award is for the best hitter, just like the Cy Young is for the best pitcher. MVP is for the best of them all. Verlander proved to be that player. The end.

He failed to carry his team for the greater part of the season (Gonzalez did that)
Split 2B HR
April/March 7 4
May 10 2
June 5 3
July 7 8
August 6 7
Sept/Oct 11 8

April/March .266/.377/.468 125
May .314/.381/.446 133
June .315/.359/.444 127
July .382/.430/.700 210
August .280/.342/.057 143
Sept/Oct .358/.400/.667 189

Triple Slash by month, with sOPS+ at the end

Any other theories you want to espouse?

___
Looks like he had two great months out of six. Gonzalez was the more important driving force for a greater part of the season than Ellsbury was. Also, looking at Cabrera’s stats, he was every bit as important as either of the two Red Sox hitters to his team this year. Then again, Verlander was better than all three of them and the AL MVP voters confirmed this. Still waiting for even a few writers/bloggers to slurp Cabrera the way that so many feel the need to slurp Ellsbury, given that Cabrera put up numbers that were comparable to (and even exceeded in many cases) those of Ellsbury. Verlander was special. The end.

Again, not a knock on Verlander. The current rules are such that he is eligible, so he should have won. I just do not agree with the current setup.

My argument with you is your constant blasphemous remarks about Ellsbury being overrated. Repeatedly you have made asinine claims (overrated, a product of his lineup, didn’t “carry” his team when he in fact, did) and now, after I have given statistical evidence refuting all of your excuses, it’s “well he was in Adrian’s shadow”? Last I checked Ellsbury always batted BEFORE Adrian in that lineup and was playing well before Adrian even showed up in Boston. They both benefitted from eachother (Ellsbury increase in runs scored and due to Ellsbury constantly on base, usually at 2nd because he steals it, Adrian saw an increased amount of RBI chances which explains his rise in RBI).

Again, I have to provide actual evidence to refute this dumb “shadow” claim. Here’s pre- and post all-star stats of the two.

Gonzalez
Pre-AS .354/.414/.591 64 RS, 17HR, 77 RBI in 89 games
Post-AS .317/.404/.489 44 RS, 10 HR, 40 RBI in 70 games

Ellsbury
Pre-AS .316/.377/.490 62 RS, 11 HR, 49 RBI in 89 games
Post-AS .328/.375/.625 57 RS, 21 HR, 56 RBI in 69 games

Ellsbury got better while Adrian’s production got worse. If your rationale was even remotely logical, Adrian would not have had such a drop-off in RBI. But of course, your logic and your argument is baseless. Got any other excuses? If you do, you truly are an uneducated baseball fan…