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The Hall of Fame ballot is announced, Bernie Williams, other luminaries now eligible

Nov 30, 2011, 2:27 PM EDT

cooperstown

The Baseball Writers Association of America just released the Hall of Fame ballots for the 2012 inductions.  There are 13 new candidates on it.  Included are Bernie Williams and a cast of … guys not as good as Bernie Williams. To wit:

Jeromy Burnitz
Vinny Castilla
Brian Jordan
Javy Lopez
Bill Mueller
Terry Mulholland
Phil Nevin
Brad Radke
Tim Salmon
Ruben Sierra
Tony Womack
Eric Young

Yeah, not exactly a killer lineup of newbies. Williams will get some consideration from many — and will probably take up more ink than his candidacy really warrants — but it’s not a hard ballot as far as the newcomers go.

As for the holdovers, Barry Larkin, who got 62.1% of the vote last year is back. He definitely deserves induction in my view.  Jack Morris follows (53.5%). Jeff Bagwell (41.7%) and Tim Raines (37.5%) got way fewer votes than they deserved last year. They won’t get in because the Hall of Fame electorate is apparently addle minded when it comes to those two, but there you have it.  Edgar Martinez got 32.9% last year. I’d vote for him but I get that many won’t vote for a DH unless he’s transcendent and that their definition of transcendent is different than mind. Alan Trammell is still hovering at 24% support, which is a friggin’ crime.

This looks to be the last year or relative calm before all hell breaks loose and the Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens of the world create ballot chaos. Not to mention a slew of non-controversial but sure-Hall of Famers like Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine and Randy Johnson in the next few years.  Hopefully some order can be restored and some justice provided to guys like Larkin, Trammell, Raines and Bagwell before that all happens, but I’m really only hopeful about Larkin’s chances.

Writers have until December 31 to turn in their ballots. Inductees will be announced on January 9.  Gentlemen: start your outrage.

  1. El Bravo - Nov 30, 2011 at 2:29 PM

    I’M MAD AS HELL AND I’M NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE!

  2. Old Gator - Nov 30, 2011 at 2:30 PM

    Bernie Williams? The guitarist?

    • seanmk - Nov 30, 2011 at 2:42 PM

      well played, you win this comment thread

  3. frug - Nov 30, 2011 at 2:35 PM

    My guess is that only Larkin gets in this year.

    My opinion on who should get in (not that anyone cares):

    Bagwell
    Larkin
    Raines
    Trammell

    • clydeserra - Nov 30, 2011 at 2:45 PM

      If bernie williams gets more votes than any of them I will not eat my hat because the BBWA knows no justice.

    • Ari Collins - Nov 30, 2011 at 2:47 PM

      I second that list.

    • Kyle - Nov 30, 2011 at 2:53 PM

      Good list. I’d include Edgar as well because I’m a homer.

      • Ari Collins - Nov 30, 2011 at 2:56 PM

        Can’t believe I forgot Edgar. Those 5 deserve to get in. I’m hoping even three can make it.

      • thefalcon123 - Nov 30, 2011 at 3:40 PM

        Edgar Martinez didn’t become a regular until he was 27, which begs the question…
        …who the hell could the Mariners possibly have had on their team in the mid-80s to blocked his rise to the majors?

      • cur68 - Nov 30, 2011 at 3:41 PM

        Yes to Edgar for me, too. See, we do so care…

      • mkd - Nov 30, 2011 at 3:51 PM

        Jim Fuc*ing Presley man. Jim Fuc*ing Presley…

      • frug - Nov 30, 2011 at 4:42 PM

        Yeah, I go back and forth on Martinez. I seriously considered including him, but decided that since I wasn’t sure he deserved to be in means I didn’t really he should be.

        Still I don’t think it would be an injustice if he were inducted (he’s certainly more deserving than recent inductees like Sutter)

      • namriverrat69 - Nov 30, 2011 at 5:18 PM

        Yeah, and, and how about Steve Howe. If he hadn’t had his issues with coke and been kicked out of baseball &^& times his stats would have been right up there too!

    • stex52 - Nov 30, 2011 at 4:01 PM

      I can live with Bagwell not getting in but it depends on why the argument is made. His statistics are a little short because he had to retire about four years early due to arthritis and shoulder injuries. He was great in his time but I have always agreed there is a longevity factor.

      But if you are going to argue PED’s when no proof is offered, that is an injustice. These weak (He bulked up” arguments don’t cut it. Give proof, or give the man his due.

      • thefalcon123 - Nov 30, 2011 at 4:09 PM

        What longevity factor? He retired at 37, had 1500+RBIs and Run, 449 homers, 9400 plate appearances…he played more than Willie Stargell, Enos Slaughter, Jim Rice, Orlando Cepeda, Duke Snider, Joe Medwick, Arky Vaughan, Ralph Kiner, Joe DiMaggio (War…but still) and roughly the same numbers of PAs as Rogers Hornsby!

      • Bill - Nov 30, 2011 at 5:58 PM

        Yeah…as much as I hate the PED witch hunt, not voting him in on merit is actually worse. He was one of the 5 or so best first basemen in history.

      • stex52 - Nov 30, 2011 at 10:11 PM

        I didn’t say he shouldn’t be in, I said that is a plausible argument. Frank Thomas and Jim Thome will be the players he is compared to. He needed 500 home runs in that company. And I stick by the numbers, 2004 was a rapid fall off and 2005 he barely played. Without the arthritis he plays to 39 and hits 550 home runs.

        He was probably the greatest Astro ever. I would never say otherwise. My point was more that he shouldn’t be held out for phantom PED accusations..

  4. vikesfansteve - Nov 30, 2011 at 2:41 PM

    With all the complaining about PED’s among pitchers & hitters Jack Morris needs to get into the hall. Winningest pitcher of the 80’s. 3 time WS champ. The 1 nothing 10 inning shut out in the WS. I don’t want to hear that crap about 1 game not making a HOF career. Shut up. Reggie Jackson used one game in the 77 WS to become the biggest star in the world. Mays with the catch. Thompson’s shot heard round the world.

    Larkin is good. Tim Raines who would slide head first to not break his coke vile. Hmm.
    Baines & Trammel were better than Larkin.

    • clydeserra - Nov 30, 2011 at 2:48 PM

      I…I don’t know where to start. Um, well, I’ll just say this, Reggie Jackson hit 563 home runs not during the regular season.

      • clydeserra - Nov 30, 2011 at 2:50 PM

        strike *not*

      • thefalcon123 - Nov 30, 2011 at 4:22 PM

        I love how his comment was so absurd that no one has even gotten to the part where he said Harold Baines was better than Barry Larkin yet.

      • cur68 - Nov 30, 2011 at 6:05 PM

        The bit where he summed up May’s career as “with the catch” was pretty priceless, too. There ya go folks: all you need to know about Willie Howard Mays, Jr. : he made a catch once. Never mind he’s the front runner of any discussion of “greatest ball player ever”. He made that catch so he’s in the HOF. Hey, by that logic, Samuel Babson Fuld for the HOF!

      • vikesfansteve - Nov 30, 2011 at 6:43 PM

        He become world known for his 3 WS HR’s dipshit.

      • cur68 - Nov 30, 2011 at 6:47 PM

        Yeah, ‘Steve, you’re right: that “Vikesfan’ ” guy IS a dipshit.

      • Kevin S. - Nov 30, 2011 at 6:59 PM

        Pretty sure people knew who Reggie Jackson was long before Game 6 of the 1977 World Series. The three prior rings and the MVP award might have had something to do with it.

      • Ari Collins - Nov 30, 2011 at 7:13 PM

        What he means is that he paid so little attention to baseball that he didn’t know how great Reggie Jackson was until the ’77 WS. (Which, well, fair enough; I wasn’t born until 1980.) So that 1977 game brought Reggie Jackson into the Hall of Vikesfansteve.

      • natstowngreg - Nov 30, 2011 at 7:27 PM

        If Willie Mays gets in for a World Series catch, what about Sandy Amoros? Al Gionfriddo? Brooks Robinson? (wait, he’s in already).

      • loungefly74 - Dec 1, 2011 at 9:08 AM

        this may be the funniest thread i read all day. thank you gentlemen.

    • Ari Collins - Nov 30, 2011 at 2:54 PM

      Jackson and Mays hit 1,223 homers between them. They were going into the hall regardless. Thompson did not have a Hall of Fame career, despite that one homer. And, surprise! He’s not in the Hall.

      Jack Morris was not that great. He’s the winningest pitcher of the ’80s and a 3-time WS champ because he was on excellent teams and all the great pitchers started in the mid-’70s or mid-’80s, instead of perfectly lining up with a set of particular decade endpoints.

      And yeah, Tim Raines was a hall of famer, but by all means, let’s keep him out because he did coke.

      • psousa1 - Nov 30, 2011 at 3:32 PM

        Well, Paul Molitor is in the HOF and a HOF coke head as well

      • thefalcon123 - Nov 30, 2011 at 3:53 PM

        Yes, but Molitor didn’t have the extreme misfortune of sharing a nickname with said drug. I wonder if younger fans think Rock Raines was a cruel joke nickname?

        I think Raines suffers from much of the same problems Alan Trammel does. Raines was a great leadoff man with some power, could steal a ton of bases and got on base a ton. He also happened to be an exact contemporary of a player who did all of those things better.

        Alan Trammel was an excellent defensive shortstop and an excellent hitter…who happened to be an exact contemporary of the best hitter shortstop in the 2nd half of the 20th century and the best fielding shortstop of all time.

        If either had played in virtually any other era, they would have likely been in the hall of fame a long time ago.

      • churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Nov 30, 2011 at 4:21 PM

        He also happened to be an exact contemporary of a player who did all of those things better.

        Except aren’t you now knocking on the Willie Mays HoF?

        http://joeposnanski.si.com/2011/01/06/the-willie-mays-hall-of-fame/

      • thefalcon123 - Nov 30, 2011 at 4:28 PM

        @ churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged

        Sorry, I should be clearer. The fact that he was an exact contemporary of Henderson is *why* he’s not in the hall of fame. I also think this is a really stupid reason for not being elected. Raines absolutely belongs in the hall of fame (along with Trammell).

      • churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Nov 30, 2011 at 5:03 PM

        Ah gotcha. I prefer to look at him [Raines] against Gwynn. Do people realize that, in almost the same number of PA, Raines got on base more times than Gwynn did?

        http://raines30.com/

      • thefalcon123 - Nov 30, 2011 at 10:26 PM

        Oh my god!
        From Raines30.com:
        The have a quote from Gerry Fraley, who google confirms is an actual sportswriter:
        “Raines’ case was hurt by his reluctance to run in all situations, as Rickey Henderson did. Raines seemed at times too concerned about preserving his stolen-base percentage”

        This, ladies and gentlemen, is the single dumbest baseball related quote I’ve ever read. Raines isn’t a hall of famer because he didn’t get caught stealing enough times?

        I would further make fun of Gerry, but a little lower down, Tracy Ringolsby said that Vince Coleman was better than Tim Raines, thus removing Gerry’s stupid crown.

        How does one get to be a sportswriter? Because knowing anything at all about sports clearly isn’t a requirement.

    • philsieg - Nov 30, 2011 at 2:54 PM

      Stick to football, Steve. You’ll just continue make an ass of yourself here.

      • meteor32 - Nov 30, 2011 at 4:40 PM

        He’s a Vikes fan. Football isn’t his strong suit either.

    • The Common Man - Nov 30, 2011 at 2:55 PM

      There is an argument, a pretty weak argument, but an argument nonetheless, that you could make for Jack Morris in the Hall of Fame. However, “winningest pitcher of the ’80s,” steroids, and Bobby Thompson don’t belong in that argument (especially since Thompson’s not a HOFer). Just because you “don’t want to hear that crap about 1 game not making a HOF career” doesn’t make it any less demonstrably true. Also, Willie Mays is in the HOF not be cause of the catch, but because he’s one of the 5 greatest players in baseball history. And Reggie was a legitimate superstar long before and long after 1977.

      In short, you might be right about Morris and the Hall of Fame, but your reasons are incredibly wrong and make you, and Morris, look foolish.

    • Joe - Nov 30, 2011 at 2:57 PM

      Also, there was a bit more to Mays’ career than “The Catch.”

      And Bobby Thompson is not in the Hall of Fame.

      • brandonwarne52 - Nov 30, 2011 at 3:37 PM

        At the risk of being a real ass, it’s Bobby Thomson anyway.

        Still, I can’t make a good case for Morris getting in. After you meet the guy, you’ll make even less of a case for him.

    • scatterbrian - Nov 30, 2011 at 3:21 PM

      Yes, Morris had the most wins from 1980-1989. He also had the third most losses in that arbitrary ten-year timeframe.

      • Detroit Michael - Nov 30, 2011 at 3:44 PM

        The problem is more to do with the wins statistic. There are a couple of other 10-year periods, not just that exact one, where Morris led the majors in wins.

        I’ve gone back and forth on Morris before, although I’m certainly aware that most statheads think he is undeserving. I’m currently leaning against, in part because there are many other players on the BBWAA ballot that are more deserving.

      • thefalcon123 - Nov 30, 2011 at 3:59 PM

        Morris also ranks 43rd in ERA for pitchers with at least 1,000 innings pitched in the 80’s….
        …just behind Danny Jackson.

      • scatterbrian - Nov 30, 2011 at 6:00 PM

        Absolutely agree Detroit, just didn’t want to open that can of worms….seemed easier to counter one bad stat with another.

      • scatterbrian - Nov 30, 2011 at 6:03 PM

        As for the other 10-year periods…

        From 1984-1993, Roger Clemens and Frank Viola tied for the most wins.

    • Bryz - Nov 30, 2011 at 3:25 PM

      Again, I’d appreciate it if I, a fellow Vikings fan, is not associated with this man.

    • Chipmaker - Nov 30, 2011 at 3:25 PM

      When Morris fans reach for the “winning pitcher of the 80s” factoid — and they do, every time — they never realize that reaching THAT FAR means they’ve already lost the debate. And, face it, reaching for that factoid has not yet helped Morris’ candidacy and never will.

    • Kevin S. - Nov 30, 2011 at 3:36 PM

      Every argument you made for Jack Morris I can make as good or better for Andy Pettitte. You ready to put him in?

    • thefalcon123 - Nov 30, 2011 at 3:47 PM

      How about every time some wants to bring up Jack Morris’ 1991 World Series performance as a reason for his inclusion, we all just bring up his performance in the 1992 World Series as a counter argument.

      He went 0-2, gave up 10 runs and 3 homers in 10.2 innings.

      • churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Nov 30, 2011 at 4:22 PM

        He was pitching to the score? (of the vikings game)

      • Ari Collins - Nov 30, 2011 at 5:39 PM

        Nice, Church.

    • vikesfansteve - Nov 30, 2011 at 6:46 PM

      Barry Larkin sucks, Willie Mays all they replay is his over the shoulder catch, Jack Morris is better than you.

      Have the balls to write your own post & opinions you fuck stick.

      • cur68 - Nov 30, 2011 at 8:17 PM

        psst, ‘Steve: these are “comments”. The bloggers write the “posts”. Oh & FYI we have commented our opinion of your efforts. We think they’re hilarious.

      • thefalcon123 - Nov 30, 2011 at 10:35 PM

        Steve, Steve, Steve…
        Just because Jack Morris is better at me baseball doesn’t mean he belongs in the hall of fame. Here is a short list of other people who are much better at baseball than me:

        Michael Jordan

        Do I really need to go further?

        You did win me over with your provocative and well thought out “Barry Larkin sucks” argument though. Well played!

      • clydeserra - Nov 30, 2011 at 11:09 PM

        you are my favorite poster.

        I agree with you on Mays though. All they ever show of him is that catch.

        Same with Babe ruth, all they show is that hyperlegged home run trot. He Sucks.

    • vikesfansteve - Nov 30, 2011 at 10:34 PM

      You are absolutely naive not to think the WS performances are not what is rembered. Look how Kirk Gibson is thought about. Same with Reggie Jackson.

      Based on your idiot #’s theory of how many HR’s that Mays & Jackson had. Then Canseco, Sosa, McGwire should all be in the hall of fame.

      Tell me how you remember Jackson & Mays then.

      Jackson as an Oriole or A? Mays as a Met?

      Shut up

      Clyde Falcon Cur Joe
      Your reasoning is embarrasing

      You had to look the #’s up too

      Fools

      Have the balls to make your own post

      Who do you think should be in the hall of fame

      How do you think they are remembered

      Their storied careers or a great performance.

      The latter obviously unless you are a chimp brain & lying to yourself

      • thefalcon123 - Nov 30, 2011 at 10:50 PM

        My attempt to rationally argue with a madman

        1. “You are absolutely naive not to think the WS performances are not what is rembered. Look how Kirk Gibson is thought about. Same with Reggie Jackson.”

        -Well, of course they are. They just aren’t the *only* things that are remember. People also remember the more than 500 regular season home runs he hit, the 37 bombs he hit in the 1st half of 1969 (and the disappointing 10 he hit in the 2nd half), for being one of the best players of his era, and for being a kind of a dick. I remember Henry Miller as some dude a book that I was too embarrassed to get past the first 5 pages of when I was 13, but I’m betting other people remember him in a different way.

        -“Based on your idiot #’s theory of how many HR’s that Mays & Jackson had. Then Canseco, Sosa, McGwire should all be in the hall of fame.”
        First off, I think McGwire and Sosa SHOULD be in the hall of fame their exclusion will be much more due to steroids than their numbers.
        Umm..Mays and Jackson could have never played a postseason game in their life and still be 1st ballot, no doubt hall of famers. Here’s my logic: Willie Mays>Ernie Banks. Ernie Banks never played in a postseason game. Ernie Banks was a no doubt hall of famer. Also, both Mays and Jackson did many, many other things besides hit homeruns.

        “Tell me how you remember Jackson & Mays then. ”
        As being really f**king awesome at baseball.

        “Jackson as an Oriole or A? Mays as a Met?”
        Umm…yeah, a lot of people remember Reggie Jackson as an A. Hell, I think of Jackson as an A, he played twice as many games with them. And I remember Mays as a Giant because he was really damn awesome with them, not because of one catch.

        “Who do you think should be in the hall of fame

        How do you think they are remembered

        Their storied careers or a great performance.”–
        –So, please, share with me the great moments that got Johnny Mize, Fergie Jenkins, Ernie Banks, Joe Morgan, Ted Williams, Stan Musial or virtually any other player in the hall of fame. Cause I look at them and see great season after great season, not one play….or are you seriously advocating David Freese’s future inclusion in the hall of fame?

      • cur68 - Dec 1, 2011 at 2:09 AM

        You tackled that mess Falco? Seriously man, tip O the Blue Jay’s hat to ya.

        As for you Steve, I remember the arguments about greatest ballplayer of all time. For me it will always be Mays. And not because of one great catch: he made dozens like that. How many gold gloves was it? 11, 12? All Star appearances? More than 20, right? .302 BA, lifetime. He was the best ever. That’s why he’s in the HOF. That catch was great, but it was just Mays being Mays.

        As for the list of potential inductees, Barry Larkin > Jack Morris. Because Larkin was flat out better at his baseball responsibilities than Morris was at his. Bernie Williams < Bagwell & Raines, same reasons. Edgar Marinez, just cause I always liked Edgar.

        This is not about hilight reels or you and me. This is about these guys being really really good at baseball as compared to their peers.

      • dexterismyhero - Dec 2, 2011 at 3:45 PM

        How about Reggie as a California Angel from Naked Gun and then OJ going down the stairs in the wheelchair. That probably got them both in the HOF!!!!!

    • kehnn - Dec 7, 2011 at 4:00 PM

      1 Game doesn’t make a career, or Don Larsin would have to be in the Hall…Morris just isn’t good enough….Who’s next, Dave Stewart? And Baines, Really? Good player- way short of the Hall, though.

  5. theonlynolan - Nov 30, 2011 at 2:58 PM

    I, for one, am glad that Vikings fan Steve doesn’t get to vote for the hall of fame. What a jumbled mess that place would be.

    • bkarbour - Nov 30, 2011 at 4:00 PM

      You and I are glad. But Mark Whitten is crestfallen that Steve does not get a vote.

      • skeleteeth - Nov 30, 2011 at 4:08 PM

        He should get in just for thumping Jack McDowell…or maybe just the thumping should get in.

    • vikesfansteve - Nov 30, 2011 at 6:47 PM

      What’s your choice chump?

  6. Joe - Nov 30, 2011 at 3:00 PM

    I was surprised to look at Mulholland’s similarity scores on Baseball Reference and see Nolan Ryan at the top of the list, with Randy Johnson at #3. Great comps!

    Batting stats. But still…

    • clydeserra - Nov 30, 2011 at 3:06 PM

      I bet most Dodger Fans think William Mulholland belongs in the Hall of Fame.

    • Ari Collins - Nov 30, 2011 at 3:21 PM

      Hahaha, great comment.

    • raycornwall - Nov 30, 2011 at 11:05 PM

      Terry Mulholland doesn’t belong in the Hall of Fame, but I’ll always remember the time that he signed a program for me. He came over, but two other Phillies ran away like my friend and I had the plague. For that, I’ll give him a vote in my imaginary HOF.

      Also, he threw a no-hitter. Only 5 behind Ryan!

  7. phukyouk - Nov 30, 2011 at 3:05 PM

    I dont think Bernie is HOF worthy… very very borderline but he just misses…

    • Detroit Michael - Nov 30, 2011 at 3:46 PM

      Not even borderline in my opinion. Williams was an excellent player, but I don’t have any difficulty in determining that he’s below the de facto fuzzy line between Hall of Famers and non-Hall of Famers.

    • bravojawja - Nov 30, 2011 at 4:18 PM

      Bernie Williams belongs in the Hall of Very Popular. He is not, however, close to being a HOFer. He was a very good player at the core of the beginning of a dynasty team in New York.

    • Kevin S. - Nov 30, 2011 at 7:07 PM

      There are some borderline Yanks from the dynasty years (in addition to Jeter and Mo’s slam-dunk cases), but Bernie isn’t one of them.

      • churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Nov 30, 2011 at 8:07 PM

        Was looking over his bref page, and I think you could make some arguments for him (8 straight years of 129OPS+, a 147/160/149 back to back peak while playing CF, decent counting numbers), but the big issue is he rarely played a full season. Only twice in 16 years did he play more than 150 games, essentially averaging 138 a season.

        He put up a 7.5 oWAR[b] in ’98 playing in 128 games. Imagine what he could have done if he played the whole year…

      • Kevin S. - Dec 1, 2011 at 10:19 PM

        I think the best case one can make for him is that defensive metrics got him all wrong and that, on the balance, he was an average defensive center fielder. I don’t think that’s the case, but if that’s your premise, he looks like a decent candidate.

  8. scapistron - Nov 30, 2011 at 3:20 PM

    Rather have Lofton in over Williams.

    • theonlynolan - Nov 30, 2011 at 4:21 PM

      Wow, great call. I think Lofton will get completely lost in the mix when he gets on the ballot. Incredibly underrated player.

  9. 18thstreet - Nov 30, 2011 at 3:20 PM

    You know what’s fun about that list? Remembering that all of them, at one time, were at least pretty good. I remember having very high hopes for Phil Nevin on my fantasy team one year. I just looked it up — he once hit 41 homers. Brad Radke? I was SURE he was going to be traded to the Yankees at the deadline, and that I’d be pissed about it. I could go on.

    I think Posnanski wrote a long post in tribute to everyone on the ballot last year. Baseball rules.

  10. thefalcon123 - Nov 30, 2011 at 3:30 PM

    Unless the BBWAA gets it’s act together and starts being less ridiculous about who they elect (*cough* Bagwell, *cough*), the 2014 ballot could very well look like this:

    Barry Larkin
    Tim Raines
    Edgar Martinez
    Jeff Bagwell
    Alan Trammell
    Larry Walker
    Mark McGwire
    Fred McGriff
    Rafael Palmeiro
    Barry Bonds
    Craig Biggio
    Sammy Sosa
    Mike Piazza
    Roger Clemens
    Curt Schilling
    Mike Mussina
    Jeff Kent
    Tom Glavine
    Frank Thomas
    Greg Maddux

    That I don’t think they all belong, a pretty good case could be made for all 20 of them.

    • Alex K - Nov 30, 2011 at 4:04 PM

      That’s a lot of really good baseball players. Not one of them would be the worst player in the HOF.

      • thefalcon123 - Nov 30, 2011 at 4:15 PM

        Going by WAR, the worst of the group is Fred McGriff…who hit 493 homers, topped an OPS+ of over 150 5 times, lead the league in home runs twice, had 10 30 home run seasons, has 10 homers and a .917 career postseason OPS and his top two most comparable players are Willie McCovey and Willie Stargell. I don’t think he’d be anywhere close to the worst player in the hall of fame, or even the worst player selected by the BBWAA in the past few years (I’m looking at you Jim Rice).

        For the record, I don’t think he is quite good enough for the HOF.

    • churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Nov 30, 2011 at 4:24 PM

      Rob Neyer, in one of the last articles he wrote I actually liked, talked about this back in January when he still worked for ESPN.

      http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/6738/change-will-roll-into-the-hall-someday

    • umrguy42 - Nov 30, 2011 at 4:30 PM

      I don’t do all the stats, so don’t jump down my throat, but the only ones on that list close to “surefire” would be Glavine and/or Maddux.

      Without PEDs, obviously Barry Bonds would be a shoo-in. WITH them… just don’t know what’ll happen. My bet is that he’ll either be in by a mile, or hover around 50%. Discuss :p

      • umrguy42 - Nov 30, 2011 at 4:32 PM

        EDIT FUNCTION! *”surefire” to me

      • theonlynolan - Nov 30, 2011 at 5:58 PM

        Your HOF fame standards must be insanely high. Like Babe Ruth and Walter Johnson and that’s it high.

      • Ari Collins - Nov 30, 2011 at 6:21 PM

        Yeah, that’s crazy high. A good 15 of those guys deserve to be in, and in addition to the guys you listed, Clemens, Piazza, Biggio, Thomas, and Sosa are no-brainer, sure-fire, first-ballot, elite HOFs.

      • umrguy42 - Dec 1, 2011 at 10:55 AM

        Actually, it’s not so much high standards – it’s who I think would be *likely* to get in, not who BELONGS in.

  11. WhenMattStairsIsKing - Nov 30, 2011 at 3:57 PM

    As long as Santo gets in, I’m good.

  12. Detroit Michael - Nov 30, 2011 at 4:45 PM

    I don’t really get the process. They don’t include everyone that meets the minimum requirements (portions of 10+ MLB seasons, the last of which was 5 years ago) but they don’t narrow down the field to a meaningful extent either. For example, I see no reason why anyone would vote for Eric Young or Tony Womack for the Hall of Fame.

    • maco88 - Dec 1, 2011 at 12:37 AM

      That’s the problem with the HOF voting. There will be plenty of BBWAA writers who will waste votes on guys like Young and Womack, when they could put those votes toward more deserving players. They might as well write in Mickey Mouse on their ballot. Those are the writers that do not deserve to be voting for the Hall Of Fame.

    • 18thstreet - Dec 1, 2011 at 9:04 AM

      I see no reason why they shouldn’t. The one-and-dones don’t prevent Barry Larkin or Jeff Bagwell from getting votes. You’re allowed to vote for ten. I understand that some voters, ignoring the rules, regard this as their duty: that they MUST vote for 10. But it’s pretty much impossible for me to imagine there is a ballot that has Brad Radke’s name and not Jack Morris. Or Tony Womack’s and not Barry Larkin’s. (Note: I’m not in the pro-Morris camp. I’m just saying that Morris is better than Radke.)

      Yes, no one should vote for Phil Nevin or Jeromy Burnitz. But I wouldn’t get too worked up over it.

      • 18thstreet - Dec 1, 2011 at 1:49 PM

        One thing I should add: I think that voters who refuse to vote for certain players in their first year of eligibility in order to prevent a player from being elected unanimously ought to lose their vote. They’re ignoring the criteria.

        Actually, anyone who ignores the criteria should probably lose their vote. So I’m flip-flopping a bit. If you’re in a tiny minority on one of your votes, you should be put on probation. And if you do it twice, there should be a hearing about whether you keep your vote. (I’m a due process guy.)

  13. dirtyharry1971 - Nov 30, 2011 at 6:17 PM

    If tony perez and kirby puckett can make the HOF so should Williams, just not on the first ballot, more like 12th

  14. genericcommenter - Nov 30, 2011 at 7:35 PM

    I think Bernie is the only one from the new group that will be on the ballot next year. I don’t know if anyone else can top 5%. I think Bernie might get 25-30%

    • 24missed - Nov 30, 2011 at 7:54 PM

      Aw,
      What about Bill Mueller? The batting champ that helped create history? Without him, the Sox wouldn’t have 2004.

      I think he should be on the ballot next year, too. That is, if he isn’t first round, like he should be.

      And I love Bernie Williams, too. And his guitar. As much as it pains a RS fan to admit it.

  15. raycornwall - Nov 30, 2011 at 11:08 PM

    Poor Dale Murphy. A two-time MVP who was as feared a hitter as any for a long time is completely overlooked.

    I understand the anti-steroid argument for guys like Bonds and Clemens, but doesn’t a guy like Murphy get credit for being a feared hitter with reduced 80’s-era stats on the flip side? I know he’s weak on longevity, but he was a fantastic player at his peak, and his peak wasn’t that short, was it?

  16. randygnyc - Nov 30, 2011 at 11:31 PM

    McGwire, palmiero, sosa, bonds and Clemens won’t get serious consideration until MLB reconciles how to handle this mess. Stats alone, they all get in, but we all know it’s been made much more complicated. Next year ought to be interesting. I think glavine and maddux are the only ones that get the nod. This year, the guys are too borderline. I’ve been a hardcore baseball fan for over 40 years, and I agree with what my dad used to say “well, a case can be made”, then they probably don’t belong. If they are FORCED to pick, it’ll be bagwell and Martinez. Not with my vote.

  17. baseballfan223 - Dec 7, 2011 at 6:27 PM

    I have to say that this is not the best list of baseball stars to come up for HOF balloting…it really is okay to not have an inductee for one year, if no one is worthy of the honor…and this list is certainly not HOF material.

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