Comments on: Cards’ strategy in Pujols talks was odd, maybe even insulting

By: pjmarn6

pjmarn6 — Tue, 13 Dec 2011 01:46:30 +0000

The main point is that his numbers have been declining. The $250 million dollar rodriguez contract destroyed Texas. Alex Rodriguez this year reward the Yankees 7.5 million dollar raise to 32.5 million with a .276 ba and 66 rbi. A lot of players parlayed their drug use into multimillion dollar multiyear contracts that didn’t pan out. And the stupid owners and general managers just don’t learn from history. Since they are playing with your money, they are just as greedy as the ball players who are just big children that are playing a child’s game. The surest way to kill initiative in a player is to give him a large multiyear guaranteed contract.
It was reported that almost 73% of these multimillionaires go bankrupt after they stop playing. And baseball stats show conclusively that most stars either quit, retire or show tremendous declines in productivity by the age of 35. Ruth, Berra, DiMaggio Brothers, Mantle, Bond etc. Why should Pujols be the exception. 4 years and he is begging for hits. But dumb L.A. is stuck with this and no other team is going to want him.

By: almac02

almac02 — Mon, 12 Dec 2011 18:01:49 +0000

Do you really believe his place in the organization wasn’t already determined? Moreno knew. That’s why he locked him up for an additional 10 years with the Personal Services contract. The last thing he wanted was for Albert to come back to STL with all of the other Cardinal greats after paying him $254 million. His place with Cardinals was a given if he stayed, it was a given even after 10 years with the Angels. Moreno made sure it’s a given that it’s with the Angels for the next 20 years.

By: irishjackmp

irishjackmp — Mon, 12 Dec 2011 17:40:14 +0000

I am not one of those fans that secretly (or not so secretly) resents professional athletes for the astronomical salaries they make (hey, if you can convince someone to pay you millions to play a game, more power to you) but to call it “insulting” to have offered the money they did to a guy who will be 32 years old in the first year of the contract (an age when hitters start to diminsh) might be one of the single most idiotic things I have read in a long time.

I am not a Cardinals fan but I suspect they will miss him for the first 3 years or so of the contract, and be secretly grateful he walked during the last 7 years of it as his production steadily diminishes. A team like the Yankees can afford to have $25m/year in dead money on their payroll, a mid market team like St. Louis can’t.

By: purnellmeagrejr

purnellmeagrejr — Mon, 12 Dec 2011 13:38:14 +0000

read most of the posts and the first one was still the best – signing Albert fort 10 is like marrying that woman that’s just starting to go to seed.

By: fearlessleader

fearlessleader — Mon, 12 Dec 2011 06:06:41 +0000

“Lovesmesomeme,” do you have any settings other than “jerk with poor punctuation skills”?

By: drunkenhooliganism

drunkenhooliganism — Mon, 12 Dec 2011 02:06:58 +0000

I don’t know how much money he made the cardinals. Im certain it’s far more than he was paid. I find it ludicrous that people say baseball players are underpaid when owners are getting richer and richer. They probably made the $100M they paid him just in selling Pujols jerseys and in sponsorships from the companies that wanted their names on the Pujols bobblehead or the kids t-shirt giveaway.

By: wardmanone

wardmanone — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 23:32:02 +0000

lovesmesomeme, what you talking about? Get a grip on the article and keep up, to your comments Know this TLR invented baseball, Cards are greatest National League Franchise ever, Albert is the greatest player of our time, and You don’t get out much! What do all these comments have in common they are all true! ok TLR didn’t invent baseball.

By: retrosimba

retrosimba — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 23:25:01 +0000

Get a grip. The Cardinals insulted Pujols? He insulted the Cardinals and their fans by showing he is a selfish fraud and a poster child for what is wrong with sports today

By: westcoastredbird

westcoastredbird — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 22:53:40 +0000

Arte Moreno just signed a contract with Fox Sports for 150 million per year for 20 years – that’s 3 billion dollars. The Cardinals couldn’t compete with that. If the Rangers sign Prince Fielder they will definitely have a better team than the Angels. There is nobody to protect Albert in the Angel’s lineup. What the Rangers learned in the World Series is that you can pitch around Albert and get away with it. If they sign Prince then the Angels will still be the Ranger’s little bitch.

By: chuckj1234

chuckj1234 — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 22:32:53 +0000

Capacity for the Lakers is 18,000… Angels is 40,000. Do the math.

By: lovesmesomeme

lovesmesomeme — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 22:30:43 +0000

Wait, what, a cardinal fan bemoaning something. You would think it would think that once they got rid of AA needin LaRussa this us against the world horse$hit would go away.

By: hep3

hep3 — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 22:25:21 +0000

Aren’t the Cardinals owners, the DeWitts, descendants of the man who traded Frank Robinson to the Orioles because he was an “old” thirty? How did that work out?

This deal should more than pay for itself for Arte Moreno and the Angels in all kinds of increased revenue streams.

By: lovesmesomeme

lovesmesomeme — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 22:24:22 +0000

Dont feel bad about thumbs down My goal for a good post is 15-20, I once infered that TLR looks like a pedophile and got 50. If you want to get into the 20′s start with calling ” the greatest fans in basebal” crybabies or ungrateful idiots. You could even leave the pedophilia out and call TLR a DUI gettin know it all.
Oh and quit wining about if people like what you write, you come off looking like a sissy

By: Reflex

Reflex — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 22:10:39 +0000

The people offering the contract are even richer, and have made a fortune off of Pujols. Moreno was willing to more equitably share that wealth with Pujols than DeWitt was. Pujols did the right thing.

By: Reflex

Reflex — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 22:06:42 +0000

Um, looking at the stats, despite Reyes’ missed time over the past few years, he has significantly outperformed Jeter. Even worse, almost all of Jeter’s value over the past three years is in 2009, the past two seasons have been abyssmal. Jeter’s war over the past three years was 8.1, compared to 8.8 for Reyes, and for Jeter 6.1 of that was in 2009, which happened to be an injury year for Reyes.

Hell, just for fun, Reyes’ in 35 games in 2009 contributed as much to the teams as Jeter did in 2011 in 131 games. Pretty scary how far the drop off has gone.

Yes, the Yanks would be better with Reyes at this point and at any point over the past two years. Even if Reyes spent half the season on the DL for the next five years, they’d be better with him than Jeter.

By: Reflex

Reflex — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 21:51:46 +0000

The Angels averaged 86% capacity last season, putting an average of 39,090 fans per game in seats over 82 home games.

By: veistran

veistran — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 20:52:03 +0000

Pretty much, the only thing I really blame Albert for and the thing that really bothers me is that he’s claiming it wasn’t about money. Its always about money, I don’t care how he wants to couch it be it in terms of “respect” or “commitment” its still about the money.

By: okwhitefalcon

okwhitefalcon — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 20:40:52 +0000

I fully understand the Cards couldn’t outspend the Angels, no issues there.

My issues are with the Dewitt’s/Mozeliak’s approach – or lack there of.

They lacked the foresight to be proactive and get something locked in with Albert earlier and gambled they would have little competition once he hit free agency.

They chose to let the situation play out and it backfired to the nth degree, sitting on their collective hands til it was too late.

By: randygnyc

randygnyc — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 20:05:35 +0000

You’d be hard pressed to find few, if any Yankees fan that would rather have the oft injured Reyes rather than jeter. Reyes contract is twice as long, and twice as much, for half the playing time. Reyes is a one dimensional player, meaning all his production depends on his legs, which incidentally, are his weak link. Sure, his offensive production was electric this year, but when analyzing the SS position, you must also factor in his replacements stats too. Like it or not, until a few years pass showing Reyes can stay healthy, he must be viewed as the player he’s been the last 3 years. Unfortunately, until proven otherwise, that’s who Jose Reyes is.

By: randygnyc

randygnyc — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 19:37:28 +0000

I recall getting a lot of “thumbs down” over my analysis, before, during and after the Pujols signing when I stated that Albert was really looking to move on. I knew there was trouble in paradise. Whether your on ownerships side or AP’s, it was clear this wasn’t just about money, but rather somehow, during all of this, someone got their feelings REALLY hurt. Yes, the cards 5 year offer was terribly insulting. The cards tried playing catch-up to the marlins 10 year offer, but I suspect that Albert had already decided he was going to leave if possible. I also suspect that when the angels gave him a quarter billion dollar offer, plus guaranteed security after he retires, it was a no brained. This means, that no matter what, Albert NEVER returns, in any capacity, to the cardinals.

I’ll also suggest that if Albert puts up awesome personal numbers in the next decade, with or without championships, Albert pushes the issue himself, to be inducted into the HOF as an Angel. This is the literal demonstration of burned bridges and the true meaning of “no turning back”.

By: jimatkins

jimatkins — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 19:34:11 +0000

Ok- my last 2 sentences were unnecessary snark. I apologize to all of you from Missouri and the outlying parts of Cardinal Nation. I worship Stan the Man too, being a fellow Pole. BTW, I didn’t vote for Arnold, and California politics is a sick joke from top to bottom.
Now to the point:
How many of the recent expansion teams (post 1960) have that kind of tradition? The Mets have their old lovable loser persona, but I don’t think that compares. Face it: the Cards, both colors of Sox, the Cubbies, all of them have about an 80 year head start, roughly speaking. It takes quite a while to build that. The only teams I can think of that have that kind of sheer devotion built over the last half century are the Raiders and Cowboys; the NFL’s popularity explosion in the 60′s caused that, I think. Marlin Nation? Not any time soon. Arte has been using the 50th anniversary this year to instill that in the organization and the fanbase. He’s trying.
One last point- the Cards simply got outmaneuvered. That doesn’t mean they are a pack of losers. You all have my eternal gratitude for slapping the Rangers down in Game 6. That might be the greatest game I’ve ever watched, second only to Game 6 in 2002, and we know why I’m partial to that one.

By: cintiphil

cintiphil — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 19:19:09 +0000

OK Whitey:
Read the last comment I made. I don’t blame DeWitt or Mozeliak, they just can’t outspend the Angels. The business can not withstand paying the money the Angels can. Do the cards have 150 Mil. T-V contract? We don’t have it in Cinti. I don’t think the Reds can spend the 230 Mil the Cardinals offered. Money bought the guy and I am not surprised that he left. Lets see what happens in the next 4-5 years. I think the cards got the better end of the deal, because this allows them to go after a lot of good players on the F A list. If Albert lasts over 3 years at his past playing level, I would be surprised.

By: cintiphil

cintiphil — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 19:03:19 +0000

Drunken:
How do you know how much money Albert made for the Cardinals?

By: cur68

cur68 — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 18:59:07 +0000

Bad optics all the way around then. I don’t see how AP gets all the blame nor how the Cards get all the blame. One side is guilty of expecting the company to love them and the other side of trying to take advantage of a person’s loyalty. Plenty of blame to spread about. The upside though is that Angels basbeball just got a lot more interesting.

By: Kevin S.

Kevin S. — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 18:57:27 +0000

Both, likely, since basketball arenas tend to only hold 20,000 or so and the NBA season is half the length of an MLB season. If you’re going to talk about total tickets sold, no sport can compare to baseball, and in terms of tickets/per game, only football has larger stadiums.

By: cintiphil

cintiphil — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 18:56:29 +0000

I am amazed at all of the comments about being offended by a business offer. Everyone says baseball is a business, right? How can one be offended in a business dealing? I don’t think Albert was underpaid in the last 10 or so year. He and his agent agreed to the contract offered, and the money was paid. No one held a gun to his or his agent’s head to sign the deal. They took the money, and after a year or two said, oh wait, maybe I should be paid more. Now the Cardinals should tear up the contract they made, and say, OK, we will give you more? That makes no sense at all.

Then, how can you say that a contract offer for $130 MIl for 5 years is an insult? It may be just a starting point in any negotiation. If any of you have business dealings you might know that. Anyway, his agent is doing all of the dealing, not Albert. Eventually the deal evolved to the last offer they made, and then the Angels offered some crazy amount, and he took it? Does anyone really feel an offer to pay 230 Mil. for 10 years is an insult? I don’t see anything wrong by either party. I think they only thing offensive about the story is how SPORTS WRITERS AND KNOW IT ALL PUNDITS wish to throw someone else money away. Easy for them to do it.

By: okwhitefalcon

okwhitefalcon — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 18:44:30 +0000

As Cur said you were doing fine til the last 2 sentences, I suppose I could counter by saying something like “It’s frowned upon in Missouri to elect actors who fuck their hired help and
have an illegitimate child with said help to the governship” but that would just be tacky..

I digress..

As franchises go, there’s no comparison between the St Louis Cardinals and the Angels of wherever they choose to associate themselves at this particular point in time – that;s unquestionable.

With that in mind, Moreno not only outbid but outsold a franchise with no identity or tradition over a crown jewel of franchises that was poorly represented by it’s less than dynamic duo of Bill Dewitt and John Mozeliak.

By: veistran

veistran — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 18:24:05 +0000

@cur68 He was pretty hugely underpaid but that still doesn’t mean you make it up by massively overpaying him at the end of his career. Beyond that Albert basically negated the whole reason why he has an agent by getting involved in the negotiations himself. And then he did one of the things that having an agent do the negotiating for you is supposed to shield you from and started taking business personally. Everything I’ve read of and seen of his comments just comes off as sour grapes on his part that they treated business like business. Commitment? Are you kidding, he’s been there 11 years he knows what their commitment is to their former players. Just another mercenary except he’s too much of a wuss to just admit that he’s just another mercenary.

By: paperlions

paperlions — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 18:11:57 +0000

Yeah, he was under-paid….and if he had taken the contract they offered, for the next 10 years he would have been over-paid. I’m not sure what the point is….you under pay some guys and over pay others, in general, younger players are vastly underpaid and older ones are vastly overpaid.

In general, I am on the player’s side of things because they are the talent and the ones that should get the most money that baseball brings in….but that doesn’t mean I think teams should blindly throw money around, it is limited, after all…

In this case, Pujols repeatedly said that he loved StL, loved playing in StL, and would play for less money to stay in StL (even stating he would stay rather than take $3-4M more per year)…..am I supposed to be pissed at ownership for believing him?

By: cur68

cur68 — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 18:01:51 +0000

I guess I’m asking you a question ‘lions: what was Phat Al worth for the years he played for the Cards? Wasn’t he underpaid? I’d figure it out for myself, but you have a more complete understanding than I do of how to do that (full disclosure: I’m a bit of a stats dunce. I have to look up how to use SPSS every time I go to use it. And that’s for non-parametric tests, too. *hangs head in shame*. Thank dog for youtube).

Either way, Spudchukar has hit the nail on the head: they treated him like his loyalty was a given. So, from my perception, its more than just Albert playing all mercenary with the money. From reports, The Angels set things up so he gets to be a contributer after his playing days are over. The Cards low-balled him after years of not paying him market value (I think) & didn’t make any attempt to include him in his post playing days plans. Frankly, I don’t see why he should be loyal to an organization that would treat him like that. As an opinion, I think they’d have had a much better chance of retaining his services if they hadn’t been so ham-fisted with him and still not have payed as much as the Angels are paying.