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Poll: In the wake of the Ryan Madson deal, who’s the biggest sucker?

Jan 11, 2012, 9:39 AM EDT

Former Phillies closer Ryan Madson just signed a deal with the Reds for $8.5 million guaranteed with incentives that could give him a little more.  Earlier this offseason the Phillies signed Jonathan Papelbon to be their closer for $50 million guaranteed with incentives that could give him a lot more.

Now, to be clear, I think Papelbon is the better pitcher and the better bet to have a better 2012 season.  But they’re not so different that it justifies a three-year $42 million difference in their contracts.  Someone here is a sucker.  Maybe Madson for not signing someplace earlier. Maybe the Phillies for totally misreading the closer market.  Hard to say.

So you say.  Here’s a poll.  Vote early and often. Assuming the poll lets you. Not sure it does:

108 Comments (Feed for Comments)
  1. mikeyrivs23 - Jan 11, 2012 at 9:42 AM

    Ahh, Craig, stirring the pot nice and early with the third choice, haha.

    • mikeyrivs23 - Jan 11, 2012 at 9:46 AM

      Just noticed the choices are not always in the same order, but this site’s demographic should know which option I was talking about.

  2. drmonkeyarmy - Jan 11, 2012 at 9:47 AM

    Madson is clearly the one who got screwed in all this. A sub par year or an injury and all of a sudden he can waive good bye to that multi-generational guaranteed money. I don’t think RAJ misread the closer market. I think he didn’t give a shit and was intent on doing and getting who he wanted at all costs. That isn’t misreading the market…it is something else entirely.

    • drmonkeyarmy - Jan 11, 2012 at 9:54 AM

      But the mindless, idiot sheep will vote for RAJ over spending on Pappelbon for some stupid fucking reason that I’m sure somebody will make a half ass attempt to explain.

      • dan1111 - Jan 11, 2012 at 10:27 AM

        Even if Amaro wanted Papelbon no matter what, he was still a sucker if he paid far more than any other team was willing to pay, rather than just slightly more.

      • The Baseball Gods - Jan 11, 2012 at 11:10 AM

        You are assuming that other teams would not have paid a lot more to have a closer with Papelbon’s pedigree.

    • drmonkeyarmy - Jan 11, 2012 at 9:55 AM

      Also, the faulty assumption is being made that Madson would have signed that exact same deal with the Phillies.

      • wlschneider09 - Jan 11, 2012 at 11:11 AM

        Who’s assuming that?

      • baseballisboring - Jan 11, 2012 at 11:22 AM

        There were reports of him turning down a 4 year, 44MM deal which is close enough. Either way Amaro spent too damn much. I mean, I’m inclined to think it’s basically a tie. Madson gets screwed by Boras misreading the market, then Amaro misreads the market and throws 50MM at Papelbon.

      • phillieschamps2012 - Jan 11, 2012 at 11:31 AM

        The report of the Phillies offering Madson a 4 year, 44 million dollar contract was completely fabricated by Scott Boras. It never happened.

    • phillyphreak - Jan 11, 2012 at 9:55 AM

      Madson got screwed in the fact that he didn’t get his contract this year. He’ll probably get it next year though. I tend to agree with you on RAJ though. I really think he makes up his mind on something and doesn’t care about the repercussions (at least from fans/media/etc). It still makes him look really foolish though.

      • Utley's Hair - Jan 11, 2012 at 10:00 AM

        Unless he goes 75/75* in save opportunities this season, MadDog won’t get a sniff of the contract he might have gotten this year. If he gets hurt or has a subpar 2012 season, Boras will have screwed him beyond recovery.

        *may be slight , albeit very slight, exaggeration

      • Utley's Hair - Jan 11, 2012 at 10:05 AM

        But don’t Reds management also have to replace all the chairs in the clubhouse with beanbag or inflatable ones? Just in case? 8)

      • phillyphreak - Jan 11, 2012 at 10:07 AM

        He might not get as much money as this year but he’ll still probably sign a nice contract.

      • Utley's Hair - Jan 11, 2012 at 10:13 AM

        Don’t get me wrong—I’d wouldn’t mind getting that kind of moolah, but he could’ve gotten a lot more this season. Boras and he apparently misread the market and made a much riskier move.

    • danrizzle - Jan 11, 2012 at 10:45 AM

      Come on, the market had to have something to do with what RAJ offered Papelbon, right? Does any GM really not “give a shit” and do what they want at all costs? And even if that’s the case, how in the world would you know?

      Madson definitely got screwed here, but that doesn’t mean that RAJ isn’t a sucker all things considered.

    • dcfan4life - Jan 11, 2012 at 11:06 AM

      And how often do teams sign free agents without spending more than someone else. Its how much more, how long, that makes a contract insane. As with Soriano in Chicago, Werth in Washington, and many others who got overpaid and tons of years that didn’t justify there age. Also hasnt anyone noticed that now that the steroids era appears to be over that MLB players shelf life and decreased back down to normal? Just saying all those years given to 30 something year old players just doesnt make sense to me at all…

  3. Utley's Hair - Jan 11, 2012 at 9:48 AM

    Ryan Madson, but because he signed with Boras, and happened to be led astray and left twitching in the breeze.

    And, Craig, that second option is just you lashing out because of your baldy solidarity with Brooks Conrad didn’t really net much gain.

  4. rpd118 - Jan 11, 2012 at 9:50 AM

    Madson — well, Boras, really — were the suckers here. They could have had at least 3/36 from the Phillies, where Madson loved playing, and are now really rolling the dice.

    The Phillies got the better pitcher and much more financial risk, obviously. But they’re also receiving the #14 pick in the draft, the first time they’ve been up that high in several years.

    • phillyphreak - Jan 11, 2012 at 9:53 AM

      Actually, it’s being reported now that the Reds first rounder is protected. They’ll have picks 38 and 72.

      • drmonkeyarmy - Jan 11, 2012 at 9:54 AM

        You are correct sir.

      • rpd118 - Jan 11, 2012 at 10:01 AM

        Oh, damn.

        The other thing is that although I’m a huge Madson fan, as recently as this time last year the Phillies didn’t trust him as a closer.

      • eaglebobby - Jan 11, 2012 at 10:11 AM

        First, the get the pick BEFORE the Red’s first rounder and then a sandwich pick. Thats what was reported way beofre this.

        Second Craig, which would you rather have–a guy who for six years has poven that he is the best closer in the business this side of Rivera, or a guy who’s only done it once, plus had a reputation for blowing saves before 2011?

      • phillyphreak - Jan 11, 2012 at 10:33 AM

        @eaglebobby. I don’t know about the compensation, but the second rounder is what’s being floated out there now. I can’t seem to find anything else on the topic.

        But I’m sure many people on this site would tell you they’d rather have Madson for cheaper than Papelbon for that contract. The reputation for blowing saves is a fan driven thing- his peripherals were all really good in 2010 (see FIP, SIERRA, FIP-, K/9, K/BB etc).

      • phillyphreak - Jan 11, 2012 at 11:16 AM

        Updated compensation ..

      • natstowngreg - Jan 11, 2012 at 12:03 PM

        Same thing happened last year with Werth. The Nats didn’t have to give up the #6 pick in the draft. Meanwhile, the White Sox had to give pick #23 to the Nats for Adam Dunn.

  5. 12strikes - Jan 11, 2012 at 9:52 AM

    How do you have time to come up with these clever polls, while trying to track all the big off season moves that Atlanta is doing so their team….. you know.. doesn’t choke away a wild card spot in ’12.

    • paperlions - Jan 11, 2012 at 12:07 PM

      Well, he doesn’t have a real job, so he has plenty of time, he can even track the FA moves made by the Phillies so they might not…..you know…..choke in the first round of the playoffs in ’12.

      • 12strikes - Jan 11, 2012 at 1:53 PM

        You have to make it to the playoffs to choke in the playoffs.

      • drmonkeyarmy - Jan 11, 2012 at 2:32 PM

        Paper,
        Saying the Phillies choked in the first round of the playoffs is kind of demeaning the performance of your team, no? Secondly, given the small sample size can there really be such a thing as choking or rather just an odd statistical occurrence that would have remedied itself if the series were of a proper length (like 13 games)?

  6. hermitfool - Jan 11, 2012 at 10:01 AM

    Love watching those Phils Pfans rise to the bait like big ol’ carp.

    • drmonkeyarmy - Jan 11, 2012 at 10:04 AM

      Phans….not Pfans.

      • 12strikes - Jan 11, 2012 at 10:09 AM

        Forgive him drmonkeyarmy…. that is they way they spell it in the Atlanta School System.

      • 12strikes - Jan 11, 2012 at 10:10 AM

        Forgive him drmonkeyarmy…. that is the way they spell it in the Atlanta School System.
        (EDIT FEATURE)

      • hermitfool - Jan 11, 2012 at 11:10 AM

        Once again, Fhils Fphans take the bait. It’s like the sun coming up in the east–blessed assurance that all is right with the universe.

      • drmonkeyarmy - Jan 11, 2012 at 1:12 PM

        Once again, commenters who have nothing else to do put troll Phillies phans are extreme phucking losers who need to step out of the basement and get laid every once and awhile.

    • Utley's Hair - Jan 11, 2012 at 10:07 AM

      Not exactly sure of whom you perceive to have taken the bait, but, anyway….

      And yes, it is Phans.

  7. The Dangerous Mabry - Jan 11, 2012 at 10:10 AM

    If you’re really looking for the biggest sucker, look no further than the previous HBT article, about 5 people who are going to give the Mets $20 million each.

    • foreverchipper10 - Jan 11, 2012 at 11:59 AM

      Well played.

  8. bozosforall - Jan 11, 2012 at 10:12 AM

    Biggest sucker is John Henry, for letting both Francona and Epstein go. Gonna love watching the Red Sox spiral down the drain.

    • drmonkeyarmy - Jan 11, 2012 at 10:14 AM

      I believe that John Henry is the biggest sucker for spending 50 million on Andy Carroll last year. Sorry Kyle, you know it is true.

      • Old Gator - Jan 11, 2012 at 11:57 AM

        Bozos is right for a change. By the end of the season, Henry will have put a beanbag gun to his head and pulled the trigger. He will be found on the floor of the cabin of his yacht, groping around for his glasses.

  9. icanspeel - Jan 11, 2012 at 10:13 AM

    Where is the all of the above option? Although Cordero might be the current loser as he doesn’t even have a contract at the moment.

  10. kiwicricket - Jan 11, 2012 at 10:16 AM

    One went for the hot blonde who drinks too much, the other buys hand-reared, individually named chicken from the supermarket.
    Certainly no clear winners that’s for sure.

  11. phillieschamps2012 - Jan 11, 2012 at 10:18 AM

    Let’s be clear about one thing. Ruben Amaro doesn’t make mistakes. Period. He signed Papelbon to protect his greatest asset, the best starting pitching in all of baseball. Madson was, in my eyes, an unproven commodity in that he did not close enough games to warrant a multi-year deal. This was clearly the view of the entire Phillies organization. Other teams were also clearly concerned about Madson’s experience in the closer role. Hence, the reason he was only able to get a 1 year deal in the open market.

    • phillyphreak - Jan 11, 2012 at 10:43 AM

      “Let’s be clear about one thing. Ruben Amaro doesn’t make mistakes.”

      See Howard, Ryan.

      • phillieschamps2012 - Jan 11, 2012 at 10:48 AM

        Ryan Howard a mistake? Why? Because he’s hurt? Please elaborate on why you think his contract was a mistake when he just starts it this year.

      • phillyphreak - Jan 11, 2012 at 10:58 AM

        You must be new here……..

      • seanmk - Jan 11, 2012 at 11:31 AM

        champs, lets say howard wasn’t hurt and was a free agent this offseason, between prince and howard which would you rather have going forward?

      • phillieschamps2012 - Jan 11, 2012 at 11:46 AM

        sean, that’s a hypothetical question. Howard was locked up by the Phillies and given 25 million a year because he’s a very popular player and considered an asset by the team. You can debate whether or not he’s worth it compared to Fielder or another 1st baseman. But, I hate when people continue to crucify the Phillies for the 5 year/125 million extension of Howard without letting it play out. If Howard continues to put up his typical 35 HR/125 RBI’s per year, I am OK with the extension. They overpaid to keep one of their own and showed loyalty.

      • paperlions - Jan 11, 2012 at 12:18 PM

        Yes, and…it was a mistake….Joe Blanton was a mistake, trading away Cliff Lee for peanuts was a mistake, giving $12M/year for 4 (or 5) years to a reliever is a mistake (at the very least, it is a highly inefficient use of resources), Raul Ibanez’s contract was a mistake (too long, too much money), Polanco’s contract was a mistake (too many years)….RAJ has given out way too much money to declining players…he’s just lucky enough to have a lot of it to give away. The Phillies have a LOT of money tied up in old, declining players for many years to come.

      • Chris Fiorentino - Jan 11, 2012 at 2:54 PM

        Phllieschamps…I warned you in a previous thread about using “heart and scrappiness” on HBT when describing a player. I feel remiss for not giving you a more full warning.

        1). Ryan Howard is overrated, his RBI totals are as meaningless as a third tit, and his contract is the single worst document signed in the history of modern humanity.

        2). The save stat is meaningless. Getting those last outs can be done by anybody anytime anywhere no matter the situation, the team, the city, or anything. The three last outs are no more pressure filled than the first three outs of the game. Period.

        3). Pitcher wins is meaningless. All that matters is xFIP. Period.

        4). When comparing players the be-all end-all is Wins Above Replacement. Even though it uses subjective defensive stats and two different places can sometimes haw a vastly different WAR number, it doesn’t matter. For example, a first baseman who hits .390 with 100 home runs and 4,000 RBIs is probably not as good as that SD who hit .285 with 35 home runs and a UZR of 9. Why? Because the first baseman was only 7.6 Wins Above his Replacement while the SS was a full 8 Wins Above his Replacement. Period.

        Ill try to let you in on more I have learned from HBT as I remember it.

      • phillieschamps2012 - Jan 11, 2012 at 3:02 PM

        Chris, thanks for the warning. I have seen this jive talk go on long enough to not get into the thick of things here. I clearly see an anti-Phillies bias going on here. Ryan Howard is one of the most prolific power hitters in the history of the game and is constantly belittled. Truth. The Phillies overpaid for the best closer on the market and will rue the day they did so. Nonsense. Pitcher wins mean nothing. Nonsense. RBIs mean nothing. Nonsense.

        The only nonsense I see here is Wins above Replacement.

      • Utley's Hair - Jan 11, 2012 at 3:20 PM

        Chris, in what universe do you reside? More boobs are useless? WTF have you been drinking?!?

      • seanmk - Jan 11, 2012 at 4:28 PM

        Ruben’s pattern is getting in first, and when you get in first you pay the highest prices on the market. it’s not totally a bad thing but at the same time there is an option to wait for better deals. Howard hasn’t put up the numbers you are describing over the past two years, and i’m not sure he’ll be able to do it this year with the injury.

        rbis totals as a measure of evaluating how “good a player are”, aren’t the best way to measure a player, since it’s a function of having people on base ahead of you. If you never have anyone on base you can’t get as many RBIs so how is that supposed to tell me how good a guy is when everyone gets different opportunities.

        plus as phillies fans you know as well as i do that there is a game plan to get ryan howard out, and that’s a lefty pitcher that can throw to the outside corner with a breaking ball. He can’t lay off it and he hasn’t made the adjustment of moving closer to the plate to reach it. sometimes he will be closer to the plate at the start of the year but he backs off from it as the year goes on. he did well early in his career average wise because teams didn’t employ the shift, but now that they do he’ll always have hits taken away from him.

        He has historic elite opposite field power, but is average to below average in just about every other area(fielding, running, throwing and plate discipline), yet he is paid like a superstar. as annoying as the papelbon contract is, he is legitimately a top 3 reliever/closer and paid that way. Ryan howard is paid like a top 5 first baseman, and i could make a case he’s not in the top 10, but that there’s at least 6 1st basemen in the league id’ rather have (pujols, votto, gonzalez, cabrera, fielder, teixeria) .

    • danrizzle - Jan 11, 2012 at 11:45 AM

      That’s an awesome perspective. Do not change, phillieschamps2012, ever.

    • phukyouk - Jan 11, 2012 at 12:52 PM

      I got $100 that this is ‘Cepts with a name change.

  12. Jonny 5 - Jan 11, 2012 at 10:19 AM

    Top shelf closers are a luxury few teams can afford. Madson/ Boras wanted top shelf closer money for someone who may or may not be a top shelf closer. They lost their gamble that certain teams would see him as such. With that said nobody at this point is a sucker or loser. We’re talking millions of dollars in other peoples money. Madson is the only guy who lost out on anything and he can thank his agent for misreading his proposed value. The Phillies bull pen along with Papelbon is still way cheaper than it has been over the last 3 seasons which was 25-28M. This season they’re spending 19.5 M. Had they played hard ball the best case scenerio is they sign Madson to one season for what the Reds did. Then where are they next season? They are looking for a closer in a market where Papelbon, and Bell are locked up. They end up giving Madson big bucks next season anyway.

    • Jonny 5 - Jan 11, 2012 at 10:25 AM

      And lose out on draft picks. forgot to add that.

    • drmonkeyarmy - Jan 11, 2012 at 10:25 AM

      Yeah, what Jonny said. Brilliant.

    • phillyphreak - Jan 11, 2012 at 10:39 AM

      As an aside I’m 110% fine looking for a closer in a market where Bell is locked up.

      • Jonny 5 - Jan 11, 2012 at 11:04 AM

        Lol! he’s leverage at least Phreak.

      • phillyphreak - Jan 11, 2012 at 11:08 AM

        Lol point taken.

    • cintiphil - Jan 11, 2012 at 11:17 AM

      Generally I agree with you however, if Madson does great this season, he will command what he wants for a long term contract next time around (as you stated). If he doesn’t, then it will prove that he is only a flash and not worth it. I am very surprised that Boras allowed him to sign for so little and no L-T contract. He could have gotten more if he waited until February, to see who needed him that bad (Angels-Tigers-Yankees).

    • The Rabbit - Jan 11, 2012 at 2:36 PM

      Hey Jonny. Hope you are keeping warm.
      I agree with you 100%, but it’s beyond my ability to stay on point so I’ll add the following….
      If the Phillies have unlimited money for players and aren’t concerned about trivial things like the luxury tax, then the Papelbon acquisition doesn’t matter. Given the quality of the starting rotation if the Phillies could score more runs, they wouldn’t need a billion dollar reliever. Most of the time, Halladay doesn’t even need a pen.
      With Howard hurt, Rollins’ injury history, and Utley declining with age, IMHO, the Phillies could really use a proven impact bat. If the Papelbon signing limits the Phillies resources to sign a quality offensive player (and keep Hamels who was a top 10 NL pitcher last season), it may not matter who is closing.

      • Jonny 5 - Jan 11, 2012 at 6:55 PM

        Hey Rabbit, I’m trying to stay warm but this stomach virus I came down with last night is making it really tough. I feel like death warmed over. And I can agree with your assessment there. There weren’t any FA bats that fit a position the Phills could have used. If they need to bolster the offense It’ll have to come via trade I think. I do think Amaro may put a bit too much value on closers, but so do many other teams. I’m thinking we may see Polanco get traded away if he doesn’t keep his obp up. I don’t think Cuddyer was the answer actually as mentioned the team is getting a little “long in the tooth”.

  13. mojosmagic - Jan 11, 2012 at 10:30 AM

    Liking Madson and one of their own homegrown talents the Phil’s offered Madson 42 million which Boras stupidly turned down. Amaro’s plan B was Papplebon, a better pitcher who they gave 8 million more over 4 years. The real loser in this might be Madson if he gets hurt or has an off year. If he pitches great he may or may not make up the money depending on the 2013 market. Clearly Amaro could have waked it out and paid less for Madson but that isn’t how they operate. They went with their plan and ended up with the games most dominate closer.

    • The Dangerous Mabry - Jan 11, 2012 at 11:25 AM

      They signed Rivera?

      • phukyouk - Jan 11, 2012 at 12:55 PM

        I honestly cannot think of a better response to that statement. the guy isn’t even the 5th best closer in baseball…

  14. mojosmagic - Jan 11, 2012 at 10:39 AM

    Dan your bad assumption is Madson and Papplebon are equal closers. Pap has better stuff and has closed his entire career while Madson has closed part of one year. People said Amaro overpaid Halliday and Lee yet look at the starter deals for lesser talents this off season. Don’t be a know it all after the fact.

    • Kyle - Jan 11, 2012 at 10:44 AM

      No one thinks they overpaid for Halladay. He gave teh Phillies a discount for crying out loud.

      • Francisco (FC) - Jan 11, 2012 at 11:31 AM

        If Anything Halladay gave the Phillies a hometown discount BEFORE it was even his hometown! LOL!

  15. The Baseball Gods - Jan 11, 2012 at 10:41 AM

    Madson became a full-time reliever for the Phillies in 2007, though he got few closing opportunities for the first two years. Before last season, I count nineteen games in that time in which he has entered in the ninth inning or later (or with two outs in the 8th, if he also went on to pitch the ninth in a save situation) with a lead of three runs or less. And his overall record is pretty lousy, near a 6 ERA, and he converted just 13 of the 19 chances, or 68%.

    He had a very good season this past year converting 32 over 34 opportunities, but one season is hardly a reason to give a guy a long-term contract for a lot of money (especially when it was in a contract year).

    The Phillies elected to go with the guy who has done it for the past 6 years and has done it successfully in the playoffs, which Madson has never gotten a chance to prove. Papelbon has a 1.00 ERA and a 0.81 WHIP in 27 innings pitched as a closer in the postseason. Madson has a 2.31 ERA and a 1.23 WHIP in 35 innings pitched (mainly as a setup man) in the postseason.

    So Ruben went out and got the best closer on the market, and was willing to overpay a bit to get him. Madson is a very good pitcher, but his sample size as a closer is way to small to commit to spending big bucks on him.

    • phillyphreak - Jan 11, 2012 at 10:56 AM

      For kicks, let me throw out a counter argument:

      From 2007 – 2011 his K/9 improved: 6.91, 7.29, 9.08, 10.87, 9.20
      From 2007- 2011 his BB/9 improved (it really improved from 2007-2008): 3.70, 2.5 , 2.56, 2.21, 2.37
      From 2007-2011 his ERA improved: 3.05, 3.05, 3.26, 2.55, 2.37
      From 2007-2011 his FIP improved: 4.20, 3.33, 3.23, 2.61, 2.25
      From 2007-2011 his SwStr% went up: 11.1, 12.1, 12.7, 16.4, 14.8

      …”but his sample size as a closer is way to small…”

      19 games is a really small sample size too. A much smaller sample size than the 2011 season. He demonstrated last year that he could be a closer. No one is a “proven” closer until the close games. Which he did last year.

      He’s improved very much as a reliever over the past few seasons. I’d rather have him for a lower rate (around what the Reds paid) than what the Phillies gave to Papelbon.

      • The Baseball Gods - Jan 11, 2012 at 11:06 AM

        There was no way the Phillies were going to get him for what the Reds got him for. At best they would have hoped for him to accept arbitration, which would have been closer to 10 Million for the one year. It is unrealistic to think the Phillies could have gotten him for that price.

      • phillyphreak - Jan 11, 2012 at 11:12 AM

        I didn’t say they would have, I just said that I’d rather that deal. And who really knows. If the Phillies don’t sign Papelbon right away (or Madson) maybe Madson’s price comes down enough to near the 8.5 million. Or maybe Papelbon’s price comes down and the Phillies don’t “set the market.” We won’t know.

      • The Baseball Gods - Jan 11, 2012 at 11:22 AM

        The thing you fail to forget is that the Phillies offered Madson arbitration. If Madson saw his market drying up and wanted to take a one-year deal to hit the market again he would have just accepted the arbitration offer. The reason he didn’t was because he wanted to keep his value high by closing games, which wasn’t going to happen in Philly since they had already signed Papelbon. They were not going to get him for 8.5 million. I, along with everyone else (including the Phillies front office) would have loved to have Madson for 8.5 million, it just was never going to happen.

      • The Baseball Gods - Jan 11, 2012 at 11:24 AM

        Meant “the thing you keep on forgetting”. Oops.

      • cintiphil - Jan 11, 2012 at 11:27 AM

        Exactly. that is why this is such a great move by Walt and the Reds, and a poor decision on Boras’ part.

      • phillyphreak - Jan 11, 2012 at 11:31 AM

        I need to fail to forget more often….!

        “…he would have just accepted the arbitration offer. The reason he didn’t was because he wanted to keep his value high by closing games, which wasn’t going to happen in Philly since they had already signed Papelbon. ”

        – That’s my point though. If the Phillies didn’t give Papelbon that contract and let the closer market play out more (much like they did with Rollins), they may have been able to land him at a better rate.

      • The Baseball Gods - Jan 11, 2012 at 11:36 AM

        Are you saying that they shouldn’t have offered him arbitration? The arbitration amount would have been more than the 8.5 Million the Reds gave him. If he was just going to accept a one-year deal it would have been the arbitration offer because it was more money.

      • The Baseball Gods - Jan 11, 2012 at 11:39 AM

        Also, if they let the Papelbon situation play out they may have ended up overpaying for Ryan Madson instead if Papelbon signed somewhere else (possibly the Marlins). You are assuming that Papelbon would have remained on the market like Rollins did, but the big difference is that Papelbon was the best available player at his position.

      • phillyphreak - Jan 11, 2012 at 1:37 PM

        I think if they let the situation play out they wouldn’t have overpaid so much. I’m not assuming Papelbon would have still been on the market, and quite frankly, I wouldn’t have cared if he was or wasn’t. I didn’t think closer was the main priority this offseason.

        The only way Madson would have accepted arbitration is if the Phillies didn’t sign Papelbon. I would have preferred that to the Papelbon deal or I would have preferred them to let everything play out and sign Madson again. I don’t think Papelbon is heads and tails better than Madson (skill wise, not this “proven” closer stuff).

  16. stex52 - Jan 11, 2012 at 10:45 AM

    Jonny made a nice summary. Salary-wise Lidge+Madson> Papelbon, and you have what looks like a sure commodity. Amaro clearly always had this in his back pocket. The worst case is that he paid a little more than he needed to in order to lock a deal early.

    It’s hard to argue that anyone who gets 8.5 MM$ for a year’s work is a loser, but it seems likely that Madson/Boras took a big hit in the opportunity cost. If Rivera retires or some-such happens next year he may get a heck of an opportunity, but he may have a mediocre year. Or I think teams are going to start looking at cheaper ways to team up on the closer role.

    In the long run, with recruiting and valuation tools improving in MLB, I think missing that multi-year contract is a big risk.

    • cintiphil - Jan 11, 2012 at 11:31 AM

      Yes, it is true. I think that the Phills signed Papelbon too soon and didn’t consider that the market was not very hot for closers. However, that is hindsight, and easy to say now. The Reds got the best of this deal, and Boras and the Phils got taken to the cleaners, in different ways.

  17. andyreidisfat - Jan 11, 2012 at 10:58 AM

    Or maybe no one is the sucker. Madson gets 8.5 million dollars to work for 20 mins 40-50 times in a summer, I wouldn’t call anyone with that life a sucker.

    Pap goes to a winner and gets a nice long deal to do the same thing so he’s not a sucker.

    The phillies who apparently have value for what an all star closer should be paid per year, cuz Pap has the same average salary that lidgey did. So it looks to me like the phillies got the second or third best closer in baseball for exactly what they thought he was worth, so they can’t be suckers.

    Ohhh I know who the suckers are. It’s me and everyone else who reads crap like this that is neither informative or journalistic in any sense at all.

    You could have done a blog looking at the stats of both players against how much either was making to give us readers a real sense of who got the better deal and why….. But then again why not just throw some stupid crap and throw a poll at the bottom so that you drive hits and comments up because who I’m sports fandom does love saying someones a sucker for signing a player before that player even gets his jersey fitter for him.

    • phillieschamps2012 - Jan 11, 2012 at 11:04 AM

      I couldn’t have said it any better myself, andyreidisfat. And yes, Andy Reid is a fat, arrogant bastard.

      Condemn the deal before Madson or Papelbon even throw a pitch. Isn’t that grand?

    • b7p19 - Jan 11, 2012 at 12:41 PM

      Wow, thats a frustrating argument. So, just becuase his talents are more marketable than yours it doesn’t matter that he left millions of dollars on the table? Of course he regrets not signing sooner, he lost money. And whether the Phillies regret the Pap deal yet or not, they certainly see now that they could have waited and saved $40 mil. Maybe Papelbon pitches like Rivera for 5 years and the Phillies win two more championships, but if he doesn’t and they don’t it was a bad deal.

      Andy Reid is a great coach, deal with it. Does it make you feel good that you chose to represent yourself with a statement about Andy Reids weight? Is that what you’ve come to, really?

  18. dcfan4life - Jan 11, 2012 at 11:00 AM

    The biggest sucker always is Philly Phans, because nothing the Phillies or any sports team in that town does will ever make them happy. Its an endless cycle of misery, even when the teams are winning. And you all know its true.

    • phillieschamps2012 - Jan 11, 2012 at 11:06 AM

      Yeah, what you said must be true, coming from a DC fan’s perspective. We all know how hardcore you DC fans are.

      • CJ - Jan 11, 2012 at 11:53 AM

        and they’re never miserable in DC. Apparently, that’s what happens when you get used to losing.

  19. mojosmagic - Jan 11, 2012 at 11:38 AM

    The Phils recieve pick 14 and another sandwich pick between rounds 1 and 2. Under the new CBA the Reds drop to the 15th pick in round 1. The Phil’s made out well.

  20. mojosmagic - Jan 11, 2012 at 11:45 AM

    Know it all wannabe types abound.

  21. bozosforall - Jan 11, 2012 at 11:59 AM

    The Red Sox are the biggest suckers because they still haven’t replaced Papelbon with anything more than chopped liver.

    • phillieschamps2012 - Jan 11, 2012 at 12:06 PM

      People should be ashamed to be Red Sox fans. Who could appreciate a team that dumps it’s best manager that it ever had, along with it’s best GM? Then, let one of the games best closers walk without even a contract offer? What’s that tell you about being a Boston fan right now?

      • b7p19 - Jan 11, 2012 at 12:45 PM

        I seem to remember someone with a similar handle to this coming on here last year…only the year was different. I think it was 2011. Surprisingly, I haven’t seen that name for a while.

      • 24missed - Jan 11, 2012 at 5:08 PM

        What’s that tell me about being a Boston fan right now?

        Through thick and thin, buddy. I can appreciate a team and root for my team. I’m a lifer. Last I heard, the team didn’t dump Francona or Theo. The team didn’t let Papelbon walk. I think the F.O. makes those decisions. Not the pitchers, catchers, position players, bullpen guys, utility players, coaches and so on.

        What’s that tell me about being a Boston fan now? Same as any other day. I’m a Boston fan. That’s the team I root for. I’m not ashamed. I really don’t get that, at all.

      • bozosforall - Jan 11, 2012 at 7:01 PM

        Through thick and thin? You must be the ONLY one, as most of the rest of the Red Sox “fans” are about to jump off of the bandwagon that they jumped on in 2004.

    • The Baseball Gods - Jan 11, 2012 at 12:16 PM

      Andrew Bailey is not chopped liver. He might not be Papelbon quality, but he has been a very good closer the past 3 seasons. He didn’t have as good of a year last season (3.24 ERA), but when you are a closer for 2 years with ERA’s of 1.84 and 1.47 I wouldn’t exactly call that chopped liver.

      • bozosforall - Jan 11, 2012 at 7:03 PM

        Bailey is chopped liver and he will be exposed in 2012. Chop..chop..chop.

        What has he done LATELY? Oh yeah…3.24 ERA. Those other two smaller numbers are in his rear view window and it will only get worse pitching against the AL East hitters.

  22. siftin thru nonsense - Jan 11, 2012 at 1:28 PM

    Wait a sec? 40M difference?? what are u talking about here? Youre like the people that just look at flat debt amounts and not the $/gdp. OK, the difference has to be compared per yr. 50M/4 = 12.5 per yr. vs Madson’s 8.5 per yr. So that is a 4million difference. Big deal. Madson blew it.

  23. xmatt0926x - Jan 11, 2012 at 2:01 PM

    I’m a Phillies fan and not a blind Amaro loyalist as i’ve posted a few times here in the past. There’s been some good but I also believe there’s been a little more that is questionable at best. I’ll wait until this era is past to decide how good a job I think he did. The one thing I will say is that this topic is a little unfair. I think Palpebon was an overpay, but I don’t think you can just look at Madson for $8.5 million for 1 season and make a direct comparison. Let’s be real. The Phillies would have never gotten that done with Madson. Madson did what he just did because he was forced to do so just to find a job this season as Boras finally got bit in the ass with holding his free agents back too long. The Phillies are a serious contender for the title and had to fill that need. Can we honestly say they could have known what was going to happen with the closer market and waited until mid January to fill that role? I don’t think so. I think the mistake was jumping on Palpebon so soon but I don’t think they could have held out until now in hopes of getting madson for 1 year. Remember, Madson turned down arbitration which would have netted him more than $8.5 million for this season. This is a Boras f-up that has nothing to do with Amaro or the Phillies. As far as the drool monkeys that talk about the Phillies fans always falling for Craig’s bait, go look in the mirror. Are the non-Phillies fans that jump to trash Phillies who jump like Pavlov’s dogs whenever they get a chance to trash Philly fans doing anything better than the Philly fans that are quick to defend themselves when Craig pulls one of his “bait the Philly fan” posts? It’s lame on all sides.

    • irishphilly87 - Jan 11, 2012 at 4:04 PM

      Love the comment. Everyone loves to hate on Philly. Look at the NY Rangers fan that got beat up outside of Geno’s by guys in Flyers jerseys. Everyone nationally was saying typical Philly. but look around the country. Look at LA they have friggin rival gangs at games. They stab people, they beat people to a coma, they have shootings at season openers. Look at NY shit happens all the times on the subways, and look at boston they’re the most arrogant people in the country and all they do is pick fights if ur not from “baaaaaston”

  24. irishphilly87 - Jan 11, 2012 at 3:35 PM

    Craig your poll is ridiculous especially putting Phillies Fans as a choice. you’re more annoying that that Tosh 2.0 on Comedy Central. I feel like you shouldn’t even be able to write about sports because you seem like the type that skips over a puddle in the girliest fashion a guy could skip. You prolly bring skipping to a whole other level. On another note, let me tell ya something. The phillies are going to beat up ur Braves. Theyre gona beat up the new Miami Marlins and that loudmouth Ozzie Guillen and we are going to take the East. Then we are going to take the NL. Every threat of ours in the NL got weaker, the Cardinals lost Pujols and the Brewers lost Fielder n Braun is prolly going to be suspended. We are going to take the NL, and we are going to be in the dance in the World Series, put it down , gurantee it that the Phils are going to be there.

  25. irishphilly87 - Jan 11, 2012 at 3:46 PM

    And you’re an idiot if you think Amaro spent $40 million too much. Congrats that madson’s idiot agent got him $8 mil because he was desparate. We just got the top 2 closer in the game the past 5 years in papelbon. Heath Bell for $20 mil cheaper might have been the only other option that you could put up an argument about. But im sorry closer is an important position and Madson who has had 1 full closing year was askin for $45-50 mil, so Paps (who is top 2 past 5 years) got that. Its what the market was. Everybody keep hating on the phils, we won a world series in 08′ and we’ve had the best record in baseball the past 2 years with most of the past 2 seasons especialyl last year we had a DEPLETED LINEUP n still got 102 wins. Championships r won with timely hitting and good pitching it seems, and we absolutely didn’t timely hit the past 2 years, and Cliff Lee’s gota earn his $25 mil in the post season instead of giving up 5 runs n losing a 4 run lead. Im confident this year itll all come together and Doc n gang will be holding up the trophy.

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