Comments on: Two examples of Jorge Posada being underrated

By: explodet

explodet — Tue, 24 Jan 2012 01:01:19 +0000

Honestly, quantifying catcher defense more thoroughly would probably only hurt Posada’s case.

By: bozosforall

bozosforall — Mon, 23 Jan 2012 23:33:10 +0000

If Jim Rice got in as a sub-par fielder, then Posada should at least be in the conversation. Rice’s induction lowered the bar significantly.

By: Detroit Michael

Detroit Michael — Mon, 23 Jan 2012 20:39:56 +0000

I agree with wlschneider09 that WAR does not quantify (yet anyway) all of the defensive contributions of a catcher. There is plenty of reason to believe that once we get pitch blocking and pitch framing and pitch calling skills into WAR, Jorge Posada will cease to be a borderline Hall of Fame case to a clear Hall of Very Good player.

By: paperlions

paperlions — Mon, 23 Jan 2012 20:26:16 +0000

Understood. I didn’t mean it to come of as antagonistic….just providing some info…hopefully, these deficiencies will be addressed in the next few years….the problem is testing any tweaks in an unbiased fashion.

By: wlschneider09

wlschneider09 — Mon, 23 Jan 2012 20:12:43 +0000

I’m not on the anti-SABR here, I recognize WAR for the information it provides. I was merely trying to 1) comment on the difficulty of applying a generalized statistic to catchers, and 2) comment on the difficulty of comparing catchers to other catchers, let alone to other position players.

By: paperlions

paperlions — Mon, 23 Jan 2012 19:16:30 +0000

People actually recognize this deficiency (as well as the deficiency of defense metrics to properly evaluate 1B), it is just that no one has come up with a reliable/acceptable way to make those estimates better, yet….each case provides difficulties not associated with other positions on the field.

By: paperlions

paperlions — Mon, 23 Jan 2012 19:13:21 +0000

You have that backwards….putting Jack Morris in the HOF would make Posada (and dozens of other guys that aren’t in the HOF) look like first ballot HOFers.

By: churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged

churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged — Mon, 23 Jan 2012 18:54:41 +0000

Putting Posada in the HoF would make Jack Morris look like a first ballot Hall of Famer.

Whaaaat? How so?

By: The Dangerous Mabry

The Dangerous Mabry — Mon, 23 Jan 2012 18:46:21 +0000

Freehan is certainly a more relevant comparison, because Singleton was a corner outfielder, not a catcher. And if anyone tells you they expect the same offensive performance from a catcher that they do from a corner outfielder, I’ll point out that Johnny Bench and Jim Wynn had pretty similar offensive careers, and there’s nobody saying Bench doesn’t belong in the hall, while Jim Wynn got himself exactly zero votes.

That’s not to say Jorge is anything like a slam dunk HOF guy, but the fact that Posada compares favorably to Singleton on offense only makes him look better if you ask me, given that he played the much more difficult (and physically debilitating) defensive position.

By: buffalomafia

buffalomafia — Mon, 23 Jan 2012 18:45:42 +0000

I agree with Yankeesgameday! Very well said! Salute’!

By: yankeesgameday

yankeesgameday — Mon, 23 Jan 2012 18:43:27 +0000

I’ve said it several times: the best place for Posada’a bust is in Monument Park, not Cooperstown. Put it out in Centerfield where the people who he meant the most to, and whom care the most about his legacy, can pay him the respect he deserves from Yankee fans.

By: 78mu

78mu — Mon, 23 Jan 2012 18:33:27 +0000

Baseball Reference does list him after Matt Williams and right ahead of Singleton and Frehann as a hitter. So I think that’s where the Singleton comparison comes from.

Unless my eyes deceived me I don’t think Posada was better than Freehan defensively. Freehan won a few GG so at least he had the reputation of being good at defense.

Putting Posada in the HoF would make Jack Morris look like a first ballot Hall of Famer.

By: churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged

churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged — Mon, 23 Jan 2012 18:22:54 +0000

I often wonder how his career would have turned out if he were the full time starter earlier than age 28. Splitting all that time with Girardi probably extended his career*, but would he have even better numbers before catching wore him down?

*for instance, highly doubt he puts up a .338/.426/.543 line at age 35

By: wlschneider09

wlschneider09 — Mon, 23 Jan 2012 18:21:37 +0000

I think catcher is the position least fairly represented by WAR. There’s no room in WAR to quantify all of the impacts a catcher has on the defensive side of the game.

By: thefalcon123

thefalcon123 — Mon, 23 Jan 2012 18:14:51 +0000

Using fangraphs WAR (because their customized leaderboards are freer than Baseball Reference’s), Posada ranks 15th all time in WAR for catchers (though he ranks behind Brian Downing and Joe Torre who only spent 30% and 40% of their career behind the plate).

I wouldn’t put him in, but I wouldn’t throw a fit if the made it. He had an excellent career and fits in with a lot of guys whose hall candidacy gets debated.