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“Jesus is alive and so is baseball!”

Apr 6, 2012, 11:35 AM EDT

Baseball God

Good Friday. Passover. Opening Day.  All high holy days for people of various persuasions, all going on today or tonight, somewhere.

But beyond a few glib little comments like that, do these things really justify a vigorous comparison?  The people quoted in this Houston Chronicle article on the matter think they do:

Kicking off the Astros’ season on one of the most solemn days of the church calendar may pose a conflict for some from liturgical traditions, but it also could complement Christians’ understandings of the incarnation and the crucifixion, according to Baylor University professorJohn B. White, director of a seminary program for sports chaplains.

“Why couldn’t one attend a Good Friday service and then go to the ballpark and experience the game differently? Even in the midst of the game, there are themes that go with the Christian understanding of life,” said White, referencing the defeat and victory, death and rising again that happens on a different level in sports.

And:

“When you say the Astros’ opening day is on Good Friday, I have to chuckle because I think of all the pain we have gone through as Astros fans,” said Miller, who used to serve at Houston’s Trinity Episcopal Church and moved to a congregation in Hawaii several years ago. “The themes of loss and loyalty, staying true to one’s calling when things seem most dire, hoping for a resurrection: Those are all things we’ve felt.”

These are religious people/scholars talking, and since it’s their religion it’s their right to make any analogies they want.  And even though I’m a stinkin’ agnostic/atheist type I understand that a huge part of Christianity is taking lessons from Christ’s life, death and resurrection and applying them to the challenges we all face.

But isn’t that, I dunno, a bit … extreme?  It’s just sports, man.  I’m probably wrong though, and for discussion purposes, would love to have the Christians help me out with this, because it’s interesting to me.

  1. captainwisdom8888 - Apr 6, 2012 at 11:48 AM

    According to Tebow’s pastor: The Astros must not be in god’s favor considering their shortcomings over the years.

    What a sick world we live in.

  2. groundruledoublebourbon - Apr 6, 2012 at 11:49 AM

    Agreed, Craig. I’m a practicing Catholic, but the Big Fella upstairs has a lot more important things going on than baseball – regardless of how much I wish he’d send bolts of lightning to destroy the Marlins home run feature.

    • 18thstreet - Apr 6, 2012 at 12:05 PM

      The above commenter is right. G-d is much too concerned about MY favorite team to worry about anyone else’s. (That’s a joke, people.)

      • natstowngreg - Apr 6, 2012 at 12:18 PM

        *thumb up for the Sarcasm Alert*

    • addictedzone - Apr 6, 2012 at 12:21 PM

      Au contraire, the big man has a box seat in his own fan cave. He probably rarely misses a game. His dislike for the Astros came when they didn’t have a retractable room on the Astrodome thus blocking the view.

    • pauleee - Apr 6, 2012 at 12:22 PM

      My new favorite username!

  3. sportsdrenched.com - Apr 6, 2012 at 11:50 AM

    No this is pretty common among Christian Baseball Fans. One year the Sunday Night Opener was on Easter. There was more than one conversation among my friends (one of which was ordained) and I about how liturgically correct that is. You have the return of Christ from the dead on the same day baseball returns from the dead!

    Also, today is Good Friday and I am a Royals fan. This means I will be rooting against the Angels the entire Holy Weekend. However, according the Gospels “King of the Jews” was mockingly written above Christ’s cross at his crusifixion. So, rooting for the Royals whose logo is a crown puts Royals fans back on the right side of God.

    And on a serious note. There is a time to be serious about this. (mostly last night,and Sunday morning) And there is a time to joke and celebrate the return of baseball.

    It just makes an awesome weekend.

  4. mightymike1250 - Apr 6, 2012 at 11:53 AM

    You’re not as agnostic as you think, Craig. The fact that you have raised these points tells me that you are more of a seeker than an agnostic. You are right when you say that Christians do take lessons from Christ’s life, death, and resurrection and apply them to the challenges of life. But we do that by the power of the Holy Spirit — a living being — who lives within us and enables us to live out what Christ has taught us (albeit, imperfectly). The way Christians think and act and talk will always be flawed and imperfect in this world because we are still sinners — redeemed sinners, but sinners just the same. Keep seeking, Craig. You’re on the right track. You will find the truth and the truth will make you free.

    • thefalcon123 - Apr 6, 2012 at 12:15 PM

      Please, take this as gently as possible…

      …but get fucked dude. Seriously? You have to use this forum to attempt to convert people? From now one, I will follow each of your posts with an attempt to convert you to atheism. It will be annoying and do nobody any good at all. So here goes #1. Is it really “sacrifice” when you know you’re going to be the judge of all mankind for all eternity after you die?

      • stlouis1baseball - Apr 6, 2012 at 12:33 PM

        Falcon: Don’t be a dick Man. Craig asked for help explaining it and Mike responded.
        Granted…I don’t feel Craig really gives a shit one way or the other. In my opinion he is looking for activity on his blog (no different than his Tori Hunter article). But you don’t have to be a complete prick to the dude for responding as Craig requested.

      • mightymike1250 - Apr 6, 2012 at 12:37 PM

        Actually, I wasn’t trying to convert anyone. My comments were directed to Craig, who raised some very valid and interesting points. What I am trying to say as politely as I can is “I wasn’t talking to you.”

        But since you are talking to me, I have to apologize to you because I just don’t have enough faith to be an atheist. How can you believe so fervently in something you cannot prove — the non-existence of God? I pray for people like you everyday and I will continue to do so.

      • thefalcon123 - Apr 6, 2012 at 12:48 PM

        “How can you believe so fervently in something you cannot prove — the non-existence of God? I pray for people like you everyday and I will continue to do so.”

        So..just reverse that question and see why I think it is silly. You also can’t prove god. Secondly, I *don’t* believe fervently in it. I just have no proof of anything, so why would I worship something I don’t is there or not (and allow me to point out that literally 10,000 other religious denominations have just as much *proof* as you). What i do have is *doubt* and heaps of it. In an effort to not do the exact thing I’m ranting against, I’ll drop it here.

        Secondly, there is a huge difference between responding to a question and writing a one paragraph thing about someone being a “seeker” and being “on the right track” and “not as agnostic as you think”. That is that arrogant stuff that drives me up the wall. Are you really that obtuse to what you are saying or how fucking offensive it is to those who don’t agree with you? And then you get upset because someone says something equally as offensive? Really dude?

        Thirdly, please, pray for me all you want. Your arrogance knows no bounds. To say that is not humble at all. It’s an attempt to show you obvious superiority due to your belief systems. Not terribly “christian” if you ask me…

      • davidpom50 - Apr 6, 2012 at 1:24 PM

        Falcon, your response seems overly aggressive. On most posts, I would get annoyed by Bible thumping, despite the fact that I am a practicing Catholic with strong faith. I just don’t think a baseball blog is the right forum to share that faith…
        Unless of course, someone specifically asks me to, like Craig did in this post.

      • aceshigh11 - Apr 6, 2012 at 4:04 PM

        I’m right there with you.

        Nothing infuriates me more than these phony pious-types who talk down to nonbelievers. Their condescending tone just oozes out of them, yet they pretend they REALLY care about your “soul” being “saved.”

        No. They don’t.

        It’s just an opportunity for them to gloat and imagine that we’re all gonna be burning in a lake of fire while they frolic with the angels.

        As Bill Hicks said: I just wanna go to the place where they’ve got the better music.

    • thefalcon123 - Apr 6, 2012 at 1:46 PM

      “Unless of course, someone specifically asks me to, like Craig did in this post”

      Again, I have no issue with answering the question. I have a very big problem with “seeker” and being “on the right track” and “not as agnostic as you think” stuff. That is *not* answering the question. Plenty of commenters answered this question without resorting to these cute belittling phrases. This is the tone used on little kids when figuring out a math problem…so yeah, I think it’s pretty offensive.

      I will concede your over aggression point. I probably should have refrained from “get fucked dude” and a couple of other terms.

      So, in summary: apologies for overly harsh tone. No apologies for criticism of content in initial post revolving around people “getting on the right track”.

  5. l0yalr0yal - Apr 6, 2012 at 11:53 AM

    It sounds like the writer is taking an evangelical approach to the article. He had an opportunity to spread the word through media and he took it, which is totally fine, I feel. Paul used culture to teach people about Jesus. Today is a great day to try and relate religion and culture through baseball, if one was so inclined to do so. I thought the article was tasteful enough.

    However, and I’ll probably be smited for this one, today I’ve got baseball on my mind, not the big man.

    I do like his reference to staying true to one’s beliefs through dire situations. When things are well in your life, you sometimes forget that you need god. Everyone is smiling, no one can drag you down, life couldn’t be better. When your baseball team is winning, life is also good. Fans come out of the woodwork and bask in all the good times and how optimistic you are for the future.

    When things are not well in your life, you feel like you need God (or some type of higher power) to save you and bring you back from the bottom of the barrel. When your baseball team is sucking, or if they’re on the verge of winning or losing an important game, you’re like “please God, just let this guy strike out”.

  6. woodenulykteneau - Apr 6, 2012 at 11:54 AM

    Everything you need to know about religion and baseball is contained in this exchange:

    Pat Kelly shared with Earl, “It’s great to walk with the Lord.”
    Weaver replied, “I’d rather have you walk with the bases loaded.”

  7. bennettar - Apr 6, 2012 at 12:00 PM

    Personally, I have never made (or tried to make) the connection between baseball and the gospel. It doesn’t appear to me that either of these quotes are blasphemous. Instead, it appears that these men are trying to apply some spiritual meaning to a (worldly) game to which many people can already relate.

    A pastor that can leverage the existing interests of the people they are trying to reach will have an easier time relating to said people if a parallel can be drawn with something familiar. It is important to me that baseball is kept in proper perspective when viewed in light of the crucifixion and resurrection. This is not always easy, so a reminder from a pastor that there are underlying spiritual themes to baseball seems harmless to me.

  8. wfblatzheim - Apr 6, 2012 at 12:05 PM

    I don’t think it’s so extreme to see elements of your faith (if its important to you) in hobbies and interests that you have. Elements of our lives inter-relate all the time – we find baseball enjoyable because of the ‘agony of defeat’, the ‘thrill of victory’, and we know how other experiences in our lives can make us feel the same way.

    What would be extreme would be hauling a bunch of friends who don’t share your faith to a game and forcing them to listen to you babble on and on about how sacrifice flies are the ultimate analogy to Jesus’ dying on the cross. I don’t see the quotes you posted as being overtly evangelistic or conversion-oriented, just personal reflections on how people see their faith reflected in their everyday life.

  9. phukyouk - Apr 6, 2012 at 12:09 PM

    Didn’t Jesus get beaned in the helmet earlier in the week? I’m glad to hear he is doing better.

  10. The Baseball Idiot - Apr 6, 2012 at 12:12 PM

    • The Baseball Idiot - Apr 6, 2012 at 12:13 PM

      Religion and baseball can co-exist.

    • natstowngreg - Apr 6, 2012 at 12:34 PM

      At first, I thought it was Mel Brooks impersonating Harry Caray.

      Those who take religion too seriously will hate it. For the rest of us, it’s hilarious.

      • stlouis1baseball - Apr 6, 2012 at 12:39 PM

        Dan St. Paul. He’s a semi-regular on Bob and Tom.
        I have heard it dozens of times…and yet it makes me laugh hysterically every time.

    • stlouis1baseball - Apr 6, 2012 at 12:35 PM

      Idiot: Dan St. Paul never dissapoints. Thanks for sharing.

  11. WhenMattStairsIsKing - Apr 6, 2012 at 12:13 PM

    I’ve heard crazier things. If people can take something positive out of religion, as opposed to the bigotry and righteousness you all to often hear, I’m all for it man.

  12. wynams - Apr 6, 2012 at 12:14 PM

    If only every Christian would take to heart Matthew 7:1 “Judge not lest ye be judged”

    • thefalcon123 - Apr 6, 2012 at 12:25 PM

      I live by Matthew 21-17 and think every good Christian should that to heart.

      • kopy - Apr 6, 2012 at 12:39 PM

        “In the big inning, God created baseball?”

      • atom55 - Apr 6, 2012 at 3:21 PM

        I’m ashamed of you fellow Hardball Talk Commentors.

        Reverend Lovejoy: Homer, I’d like you to remember Matthew 7:26. “The foolish man who built his house upon the sand.”
        Homer: [pointing a finger] And you remember
        [thinks]
        Homer: Matthew… 21:17.
        Reverend Lovejoy: [confused] “And he left them and went out of the city, into Bethany, and he lodged there?”
        Homer: Yeah. Think about it.

        Not recognizing Simpsons referenecs is downright un-American!

    • addictedzone - Apr 6, 2012 at 12:33 PM

      the hell you say? We’d have no umpires to call balls and strikes.

    • mightymike1250 - Apr 6, 2012 at 12:43 PM

      It’s rarely a good idea to take Scripture passages out of context, as you seem to have done here. The context of Matthew 7:1 is as follows:

      1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
      3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

      So, the admonition from Christ is not to never make judgments, but rather to make sure that your own house is in order first and to realize that you also will be judged by the same standards that you apply to others. Make sense?

  13. thefalcon123 - Apr 6, 2012 at 12:16 PM

    …are you trying to say Jesus Christ can’t hit a curveball?

    • addictedzone - Apr 6, 2012 at 1:09 PM

      If he could, he would have been playing and not managing.

  14. bobwheel - Apr 6, 2012 at 12:21 PM

    A thought provoking post, Craig. I think Professor White acurately sums it up for those of us who observe Good Friday today, and are also faced with the prospect of embarking on our annual 6 month pilgrimage with our respective favorite baseball teams. Whether or not you declare yourself a believer is irrelevant – faith and baseball intertwine.

    • wynams - Apr 6, 2012 at 12:24 PM

      As a non-believer, I can pretty much assure you that faith and baseball intertwine about as much as opening day and Japan.

      • wfblatzheim - Apr 6, 2012 at 1:07 PM

        Faith and baseball intertwine for believers. They don’t inter-twine for non-believers. Right?

  15. stlouis1baseball - Apr 6, 2012 at 12:29 PM

    I would try Craig…but I fear you may take my explanation as racist.

  16. prospero63 - Apr 6, 2012 at 12:29 PM

    I think John 13:38 says: Then Jesus answered, “Will you really lay down a bunt for me? Very truly I tell you, the ump shall not crow out, till you have swung and missed three times!”

    Or something like that…

  17. churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Apr 6, 2012 at 12:39 PM

    I have this saying, Ezekiel 25:17. The path of the righteous….

  18. Albert Lyu - Apr 6, 2012 at 12:48 PM

    “But isn’t that, I dunno, a bit … extreme? It’s just sports, man.”

    The author of Ecclesiastes struggled and empathized with the connection between life’s joys and struggles and their meaninglessness as much as many of us have, Christian or not.

    But Paul alluded to the theme of ‘meaningless things we do in life’ relating to living life as a practicing Christian in his letter to the Corinthians… he admitted “Everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial.” And he ends 1 Corinthians 10 with “so whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God.”

    As mentioned in a comment above, Paul and the early Christians in the book of Acts did meet non-believers where they were depending on the culture. Paul’s letter to the Corinthians was harsh because the church of Corinth was corrupt with hypocrisy and pride. But Paul’s interaction with the Greeks was very different (reasoned, argumentative), as the Greeks believed in reason and debates in determining who/what is God/god (much like contemporary society). And even as Philip was talking to the traveling Ethiopian about Jesus, he did so only by explaining a passage that the Ethiopian did not understand.

    So I firmly believe that practicing evangelical Christians can apply their faith and life to baseball as that is the culture we are currently in. The Bible does instruct us to store up treasures in heaven, and not on the things of this earth. So just as our lives here on earth (Christians believe) will pass, so to will baseball.

    But while we understand that the meaning of life isn’t intertwined completely with baseball, that doesn’t mean we don’t glorify God or ‘practice our faith’ by enjoying baseball. God gave us pleasures to enjoy life, and gave others skills and callings that relate to sports.

    That’s why I don’t have a problem with Tim Tebow or Jeremy Lin giving thanks to Jesus when they win — what doesn’t often get preached is that Christians also give thanks to Jesus when they lose (or, equivalently, lose our jobs or experience a death of a family member). Because just as in the story of Joseph, who proclaimed “you intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done,” so to do Christians find comfort in that we believe God works through good, through evil, through big things, through small things (yes, even baseball). Winning/losing in sports as it relates to our spirituality and faith isn’t as zero-sum as many believe.

    At the risk of being bombasted by other commenters, I would highly recommend “Your Plans: God’s Plans” by Tim Keller. Keller is a pastor in Manhattan, and he frequently meets our young/single/unbelieving generation where we are when he preaches. He reconciles our free will (to live life as we wish, being responsible for our choices) with God’s ultimate decisions (even determining the result of a coin flip). http://sermons2.redeemer.com/sermons/your-plans-gods-plans

    • churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Apr 6, 2012 at 12:51 PM

      I’m a catholic, but this:

      He reconciles our free will (to live life as we wish, being responsible for our choices) with God’s ultimate decisions (even determining the result of a coin flip).

      is impossible. One cannot have free will if the results are already determined.

    • fauxhawkrawk - Apr 6, 2012 at 12:52 PM

      *bug

  19. fauxhawkrawk - Apr 6, 2012 at 12:50 PM

    I’m a Christian, and honestly, comments like the one you quoted big me a little because there really doesn’t seem to be a link there. Some people seem to try a little too hard to make Christianity relate to things that it really doesn’t relate to. Baseball and Christianity are two great but different things…and that’s ok.

  20. annaalamode - Apr 6, 2012 at 12:59 PM

    I think it comes down to how closely one entwines the spiritual and the material world. How do you see God? How do you see your faith? How does that play out in your life? In my life, at least, I see the Holy Spirit reflected in things that are so beautiful that I feel God’s presence, like in a perfectly turned double play or a pair of great shoes or in a Natalia Osipova performance. I don’t, however, see the themes of Good Friday or the Resurrection played out in a baseball season. That doesn’t make their interpretation of Christianity any less valid, it just makes it different from mine.

    I think the question isn’t so much a Christian one, per se, but one about the presence of faith in a believer’s life. And that varies for everyone.

  21. natstowngreg - Apr 6, 2012 at 1:14 PM

    Bits of historical perspective on the intersection of religion and baseball (not necessarily connected with each other):

    Early in pro baseball history, playing on Sunday was banned by “blue laws” prohibiting commerce on that day. Apparently, the devout souls of the time found professional baseball to be a vulgar and corrupt way to spend the Sabbath. Eventually, these laws were repealed, though not until 1934 in Pennsylvania. A couple of blog posts I found on the subject:

    http://baseballhistoryblog.com/tag/blue-laws/

    http://www.philadelphiaathletics.org/history/sundaybaseball.html

    Sandy Koufax refused to pitch Game 1 of the 1965 World Serious because it was on Yom Kippur (October 6). MLB has solved that problem by moving the World Series to the end of October.

    BTW, remember the stink in Cincinnati when the schedule came out, and the Reds’ home opener was to be today?

  22. steele9153 - Apr 6, 2012 at 1:16 PM

    there is a link between baseball and religion: both are man made; a haven for those with small frontal lobes and large adrenaline glands.

    • thefalcon123 - Apr 6, 2012 at 1:27 PM

      Yeah, I don’t think religion is a matter of intelligence at all. Since you know…Martin Luther King, Galileo, everybody who has been President…bunch of other people. I think the reasons people believe are interesting, complex, and it’s something I very much disagree with. But it’s not nearly as simple as “oh, he’s just an idiot”.

      I’ll use my brother as an example. He’s a physics professor, earned his PhD by age 28, and is smarter, wealthier, better groomed and is genuinely superior to me in every single way. He also goes to Church Sunday and believes a magic man in the sky created everything and had a kid who was crucified and is the savoir of all humanity. See, not an issue of intelligence because he’s a fucking genius.

      • stlouis1baseball - Apr 6, 2012 at 1:59 PM

        Falcon: Please have a drink!
        You have an enormous amount of pent-up rage going on today Man.
        I do want to ask you a question though cause’ this is something I have always wondered about. Qualification: I am sure you have been asked this question numerous times.
        What if I (as a believer) am right and you (as a non-believer) is wrong?

      • thefalcon123 - Apr 6, 2012 at 2:10 PM

        Note: the tone in my head was actually very calm when I was writing this! I swear! I was only trying to say that very, very smart people are religious sometimes contrary to steele’s post. Does my constant use of expletives give off the wrong impression?

        “What if I (as a believer) am right and you (as a non-believer) is wrong?”

        Anyway, yes. Two answers:
        #1. I’m a moral man. Faithful to my wife, I give to charity, I treat others well, my appalled by atrocities and geniunley think the world would be better if we were all more equal. If I’m going to be sent to hell just because my life didn’t include going into a church every Sunday and praying to a God who never proved himself to me…so be it. A God who would do that doesn’t really seem like the type of God worth worshiping. Being moral out of fear of God’s wrath isn’t real morality at all.

        #2. This question kind of sounds like the lottery slogan: you gotta play to win! To paraphrase Jon Krakauer, there are over 10,000 religious denominations in the world, *most* (not all) of which think the other 9,999 are agents of evil. I could very much ask you the same question. What if *you* are wrong. What if only Maronite Christians get to go and those Baptists at condemned to hell. Or what if the Ancient Greeks were right and you’re just making Zeus madder and madder every day.

        I should conclude with a disclaimer. I have no problem with religious people. You should be able to go to church all you want without my critics. My problem is when that religion is used to justify abhorrent actions and justify things I don’t believe. When someone justifies an opinion on the basis of their faith, then they are bring their faith into it, not me. If your faith justifies something I disagree with, I will question your religious beliefs along with your political ones.

      • sportsdrenched.com - Apr 6, 2012 at 3:28 PM

        “there are over 10,000 religious denominations in the world, *most* (not all) of which think the other 9,999 are agents of evil”

        That’s not true. Might want to do some research on that. And by research I don’t mean Kraukaur.

        Judisiam, Islam, & Christianity all worship the same God. Which eliminates half of the differing religions in the first place. With the exception of a few nutcases that exist in all organizations..most religions are very respectful and tolerant of the other. After all we have more in common with each other than we do with non-beleivers

      • thefalcon123 - Apr 6, 2012 at 4:17 PM

        @drenched.

        You seem confused at what “denomination means”. Baptist, Catholics, Methodists are all different denominations even though they are all technically “Christians” (note: in large part, people identified largely identified with their specific denomination as opposed to the generic Christian term until very recently). Aside from the major religions, there are any number of fringe cults, local worships and even cargo cults that still exist.

        Secondly, I don’t care that you’re tolerant. Does the Catholic Church think the Jews are going to heaven with Jesus? Do Muslims think Methodists get 72 virgins in heaven? You may think what you think, but it is at odds with what is being preached by your church.

        Thirdly, you have more in common with them than me? How? My life is probably very similar to yours, just without going to Church on Sunday (which a shockingly large number of Christians don’t do). I’d say your similarities to those around is FAR more cultural that religious.

      • stex52 - Apr 6, 2012 at 8:39 PM

        Falcon, I had some thoughts about this, but I think the temperature got a little too high a little quickly. I will wait for another thread. Just one comment; I think the theologians at the top made a couple of pretty innocuous statements, and they are really talking about people, not about God. Obviously the whole subject hit a nerve; I was surprised how hot it got.

  23. stlouis1baseball - Apr 6, 2012 at 2:00 PM

    is = are. Sorry.

    • churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Apr 6, 2012 at 2:12 PM

      What if I (as a believer) am right and you (as a non-believer) is wrong?

      Nothing changes? As a non-believer, the person would go to “hell/hades/wherever” after death, so for them the situation doesn’t change at all.

      The problem is that so many of the tenets of Christianity (or any Judeo-Christian faith) are paradoxical. If God has predetermined everything as mentioned above, how can we have free will? If we don’t have free will (due to predetermination), what does it matter what we do in life if God already has a plan? Let alone how do we reconcile an all-powerful, all-benevolent, all-knowing god with evil in the world?

      • stlouis1baseball - Apr 6, 2012 at 2:37 PM

        Falcon/Church: Thanks for the response(s).
        Falcon: “Being moral out of fear of God’s wrath isn’t real morality at all.”
        Well said. I couldn’t agree more.
        Church: “As a non-believer, the person would go to “hell/hades/wherever” after death, so for them the situation doesn’t change at all.”
        You make a good point. But I disagree. I am inclined to think they will be shouting…Doooh!

      • Utley's Hair - Apr 6, 2012 at 3:15 PM

        I was always taught that we do possess free will, but that does not mean that God does not know what path we will choose to follow.

      • churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Apr 6, 2012 at 4:24 PM

        but that does not mean that God does not know what path we will choose to follow.

        Of course, but there’s a difference in knowing and having a hand in the decision. The former allows for free will, the latter doesn’t.

  24. retief1954 - Apr 6, 2012 at 3:30 PM

    OF COURSE it’s extreme. OF COURSE it makes most people uncomfortable. OF COURSE it’s inappropriate to compare te two. It’s the bizarre, faith-drenched musings of American Christianity! Creepy.

  25. yahmule - Apr 6, 2012 at 7:21 PM

    Texas. The state where right wing activists invaded the school board to stuff their creationist propaganda into the science books. Fully supported by that esteemed scholar GWB.

    • stex52 - Apr 6, 2012 at 8:17 PM

      Don’t blame all Texans. And, in large part, they got knocked back. Still working on it. The problem is an idiot governor. Give us time.

      • Kevin S. - Apr 6, 2012 at 9:08 PM

        Not that you necessarily voted for Perry, stex52, but how many idiot governors cut from the same cloth can you have before you realize the problem might just be with the majority of the electorate?

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