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Players with more homers than the Phillies

Apr 9, 2012, 6:07 PM EST

Hunter Pence fans Getty Images

Jay Bruce
Miguel Cabrera
Yoenis Cespedes
Corey Hart
Omar Infante
Alex Avila
Carlos Beltran
Lucas Duda
Prince Fielder
Aaron Hill
Eric Hosmer
Adam LaRoche
Matt Kemp
Nick Markakis
Carlos Pena
Pablo Sandoval
Carlos Santana
Josh Willingham

Yeah, I’m trolling a bit. But this has been an ugly offensive display.

Not only do the 1-3 Phillies have just one homer through four games, but they’re also right near the bottom of the league with three doubles and they’ve yet to record a triple, leaving them with four extra-base hits in four games. Even the 2011 Mariners, the worst in the league last year, averaged 2.4 extra-base hits per game.

  1. youjivinmeturkey - Apr 9, 2012 at 6:09 PM

    That’s Just Plain-Ole SAD :(
    Poooooooor Philly.

  2. lancer255 - Apr 9, 2012 at 6:15 PM

    I hope this shuts up all the Ryan Howard haters

    • sasquash20 - Apr 9, 2012 at 6:33 PM

      I couldn’t agree more with this post. Howard has been, is, and will be the most important bat we have. Thumbs down all you want but you either are a hater, a racist, or think he is over paid so you then become a hater. Howard has been the best non-pitcher on the Phillies since he has been here. Utley gets all the love but the last 4 years he has disapeared for months at a time and his numbers have just dropped each season. Maybe the best 2nd baseman in Phillies history but he clearly isn’t an everyday player anymore.

      • mrfloydpink - Apr 9, 2012 at 6:52 PM

        So if I think Ryan Howard’s contract is insane–he’s being paid Top 10 money for something like Top 50 production–then I’m a racist? K, got it!

      • sasquash20 - Apr 9, 2012 at 7:33 PM

        Clearly you struggle with reading comp. I said you are either a hater, a racist, or think he is over paid so you then become a hater. Learn how to read retard. Also without R.Howard the Phillies don’t sniff the past 5 seasons.

      • paperlions - Apr 9, 2012 at 8:17 PM

        Clearly, you struggle with logic. In this case, a person that disagrees with you need not be a hater or racist, because they are correct.

      • mrfloydpink - Apr 9, 2012 at 9:01 PM

        My friend, I have no problems whatsoever with reading comprehension. And before you go calling people “retard” you might want to learn how to write.

        First of all, if I don’t like the Howard contract I am either a “hater”–whatever that means–or a racist. There is absolutely NO rational reason to dislike the contract?

        Second, “Also without R.Howard the Phillies don’t sniff the past 5 seasons.” What the hell does that mean? They would have forefeited their last 800+ games if he was not on the roster?

        Here are the facts:

        1. Howard is overpaid relative to his production
        2. He was given a truckload of money when his skills were clearly in decline, and well before it was necessary to give him a new contract.

        You can deny it all you wish. But that’s why people laugh at Phillies phans and their myopia at times.

    • phillyphreak - Apr 9, 2012 at 8:36 PM

      Yes Howard > Nix/Wiggington.

      But Howard his contract

      • phillyboy20 - Apr 10, 2012 at 11:21 AM

        I dont see why people care so much about his contract, this is baseball there is no cap. His salary never has and never will prevent Ruben from getting the players hes wanted to get. It didnt stop us from getting Halladay, Cliff, or Pence. Every year the Phillies organization always throws out a number they don’t want to go over, and every year they’ve gone over it if they needed to. So do his numbers represent what he’s getting paid, no not right now. But up until he started getting injured he was hitting 40 HR and 120 RBIs…theres not alot of guys out there that are doing that.

      • phillyphreak - Apr 10, 2012 at 11:45 AM

        They care because that’s money that could have been used to sign other players, maybe they would have been in the Fielder or Pujols bidding. Although those contracts have their own problems at least those two will be more productive than Howard.

        They care because the contract was signed before Howard was even a FA and was already in decline. He’s being paid top 1B money and is not even in the top 10.

        Halladay and Pence were trade/extensions or arbitration respectively. Lee was the FA RAJ landed after he traded him away to get Halladay.

        There is no salary cap but there is a luxury tax. It doesn’t seem that teams are always falling over themselves to go over it probably because they don’t want to continuously pay the penalty.

        And was it injury that got him or was it teams figuring out he can’t he a breaking pitch from a lefty?

      • phillyboy20 - Apr 10, 2012 at 12:35 PM

        Regardless of Howard’s salary we were never going to let him go on the odd chance that we might be able to get Pujols or Fielder.

        And again doesnt matter if they were free agent signings or trades his salary still didnt prevent us from being able to get the guys we wanted, they’ve gotten who they wanted everytime (both roy’s, cliff, and Pence).

        You say he was in decline but he was still hitting 40 and 120 how many guys in the league were doing that? Not to mention since 2008 his batting avg went up and Ks down before signing that extension.

        And the Phils arent like every other team anymore, they are closer to the yankees and sox with the revenue they bring in, the luxury tax wouldn’t matter they will still make money.

        Not denying that he isnt overpaid just saying that it doesnt matter.

      • phillyphreak - Apr 10, 2012 at 1:38 PM

        So if the Howard contract (and Papelbon’s too) prevent the Phillies from making a significant offer to Cole, how will you feel?

        Ryan Howard signed his extension in April of 2010. Taking your stance and focusing on 2008 and 2009–> According to fWAR in 2008 he ranked 11th among qualified 1B. In 2009, he ranked 9th in fWAR. Had he been a FA then and signed this same contract (or a similar one for market value), I don’t know if the backlash would have been so bad. It probably still would have been debated spiritedly but maybe not with such….vigor. The only thing is that they didn’t HAVE to sign him then. Had they played the waiting game:

        In 2010, again according to fWAR, he ranked 16th among qualified 1B and in 2011 he ranked 17th. (Again, this is BEFORE his contract extension even kicked in. A contract, mind you, that is that is the 4th highest AAV contract in baseball history.) Since 2008 (which would have been under his original contract) his ISO, SLG, OBP, and wOBA are all down. His OBP against lefties is dreadful….hence the heavy use of lefties against him.

        With these decreases in mind, if he is a FA to be and ruptures his Achilles last October does he even sniff this contract? No. Is he worth this contract? No. Do I love Ryan Howard and root for him as a Phillies fan? Hell yes.

        I really don’t understand why some fans don’t care about the contracts of the team.

      • phillyboy20 - Apr 10, 2012 at 6:36 PM

        The only reason cole wont get paid the amount he wants is because Ruben thinks that a cy young award is worth more money than a word series MVP (made that comment about a month ago) not bc of Howards contract. If anything Halladay and Lee’s contract have more of an impact than Howards.

        Like I said before fans of most teams do need to care about big contracts, but the Yankees, soxs, phillies, and even the cubs to a certain extent dont.

      • phillyboy20 - Apr 10, 2012 at 6:40 PM

        by the way I put the cubs in there bc they do have the money to spend they just happened to find a way to over pay every single player on that team rather than one or two.

  3. phillyfanmatt - Apr 9, 2012 at 6:16 PM

    It’s 4 games into the season. At least with until it’s like a month in. Geeze anyone notice in the past 5 seasons all of which the won the NL East mind you. They have only had only one really good April which was last year. Then they usually turn it on and have the best record in all of baseball from may on. Just be patient. It’s only 4 games in.

    • sasquash20 - Apr 9, 2012 at 6:40 PM

      Normally I agree with this thought but with Howard out, and who knows about Utley I just can’t shake my worry about this team. You get old fast in sports and I think the Phillies are old. If the first month or two the Phillies are floundering then its time to unload everyone you can for prospects. And if that happens Cole Hammels should be the first guy we move. I love Cole and always will for his winning us the 08 WS. But the Dodgers paid a ton of money and one has to think they may make a pricey run at Cole who looks like the best pitcher to be available in FA in the offseason. I just think if it starts to look like a lost year we need to go and unload and build the farm system back up.

      • congratsyouareanidiot - Apr 10, 2012 at 9:32 AM

        ‘build the farm system back up’

        Yes… build the farm with Lee, Hamels, and Halladay as your top 3 in the rotation and a closing window to win another title. You think that Lee and Halladay will be happy when you start trading star players for 18 year olds when they came here to win a title?

        You are an idiot.

      • sasquash20 - Apr 10, 2012 at 5:05 PM

        I think the window is closed and I would look to trade all those guys to build the farm team back up so maybe we can compete in 5 years instaed of 10-15 years.

        Howard is out and I’m not sure when he is coming back. Utley isn’t an everyday player anymore. Polanco is old and getting older every day. Rollins can still play but he isn’t going to get better. I think its time to think about the future.

  4. Utley's Hair - Apr 9, 2012 at 6:40 PM

    Meh…the only similarity between now and when the games really count is the chill in the air. Granted, they have to get there, but I’m not worrying until the number of games played are in double digits at least.

  5. 18thstreet - Apr 9, 2012 at 6:52 PM

    Isn’t this Craig’s job?

    • cltjump - Apr 9, 2012 at 8:52 PM

      Obviously, Matthew is learning things like “How To Win Comments and Alienate Philadelphians” from the Master Baiter himself.

  6. proudlycanadian - Apr 9, 2012 at 6:53 PM

    Pujols is not on the list. As I type this his BA is .214. It is early and we all know that Pujols and for that matter the Phillies will soon begin to hit much better.

  7. klink6224 - Apr 9, 2012 at 7:02 PM

    Let’s not forget that the Phillies started off 1-3 in 2009 and didn’t hit .500 until the 16th game of the season. That season they went on to the World Series. For whatever reason they have always struggled in Pittsburgh since PNC Park opened. They also struggle against inferior teams like Houston and whoever the “junk” of the Interleague series teams are outside of the Red Sox and Yankees.

    I am by no means trying to be apologist but it is just wayy to early to draw too many conclusions about this seaons version. It is a bit concerning sure. They are older and have been declining for years. They are short Howard for a good bulk of the season and even when Utley returns its only going to be his name on the back of his jersey, not the player they need him to be.

    Also the Yankees started off 1-4 in 1998 before winning 114 games and only losing 44 more the rest of the way. Not saying by any means this team will do anything like that, just should withhold judgement for a little while longer to see what is true and not.

    • Ben - Apr 9, 2012 at 7:19 PM

      Your first paragraph was the definition of being an apologist. But I agree, wait at least another week before hissy fits.

  8. Matthew Pouliot - Apr 9, 2012 at 7:24 PM

    Homer Bailey just added three more players to the list: Holliday, Freese and Molina.

  9. dondada10 - Apr 9, 2012 at 7:29 PM

    Andre Either, Corey Hart and Zack Cozart all have the same about of extra base hits as the Phils.

    Zack Cozart, BTW, is legit.

    • stlouis1baseball - Apr 10, 2012 at 12:01 PM

      Absolutely Don. Based upon what I have seen thus far (and it is a small sample size) Cozart is going to be a solid player in this league. I like the kid.

  10. paperlions - Apr 9, 2012 at 7:33 PM

    You can add Matt Holliday, David Freese, and Yadier Molina to that list.
    :-)

  11. Gonzo - Apr 9, 2012 at 7:34 PM

    Why does every Phillies post turn into a “Howard is paid way too much money” post? It doesnt matter how much money he makes. They had to pay him $25 Mil a year to prevent from losing him. If you look at Ryan Howard (And any other player, for that matter) and all you see is dollar signs, then you need to re-evaluate how you enjoy the game of baseball.

    • sasquash20 - Apr 9, 2012 at 7:36 PM

      Well put

      • stlouis1baseball - Apr 10, 2012 at 12:07 PM

        Squash: You seem to be basing everything on what Howard has won. Granted…championships are the bench mark (as a rule). But we aren’t discussing ping pong, hop scotch, tennis, golf, motocross, swimming or diving. Baseball (above all others in my opinion)…is a team sport. Put Joey V. at 1st base in Philadelphia and tell me what Joey has won. Currently, he doesn’t have Halladay, Hamels, Lee, etc… Nor does he have Rollins, Polanco, Victorino, etc… Your “what has Joey won” argument doesn’t apply here.
        Cause’ again…it’s a team sport.

      • sasquash20 - Apr 10, 2012 at 5:02 PM

        ST.LOUIS1BASEBALL
        When Howard won a WS he didn’t have Doc, Lee, Polanco, Pence, or Paplebon.

    • paperlions - Apr 9, 2012 at 7:53 PM

      I agree with everything you said, except for the assumption that they had to pay $25M to keep him. They may have had to pay $25M to sign him to an extension 2 years ago….but if they had waited, they could have kept him for far less money. Two years ago there were clear signs of decline in Howard’s performance. Over the last two years he continued to decline. Joey Votto (a younger and far superior player) and Prince fielder (younger and also a superior hitter) didn’t get $25M/year….there is no way Howard would have got anywhere near $20M/year on the FA market.

      • sasquash20 - Apr 9, 2012 at 7:59 PM

        Two guys that never won anything are far superior to Howard? Your crazy

      • sasquash20 - Apr 9, 2012 at 8:01 PM

        He may not have gotten 25 million but he would have gotten 20 million. J.Werth got over 120 million because of the protection Howard gave him in that line up. Someone would have given Howard a ton of money.

      • sasquash20 - Apr 9, 2012 at 8:22 PM

        Votto’s 4 best seasons HR and RBI- 24HR, 84 RBI, 25HR, 84 RBI, 37HR, 113 RBI, 29HR,103 RBI. He is a better average hitter and walks more but again he never won anything and was swept by Howard and the Phillies the last time he made the playoffs.

        Fielder best 6 seasons HR and RBI-28 HR,81 RBI, 50HR, 119 RBI, 34HR, 102 RBI, 46HR, 141 RBI, 32 HR, 83 RBI, 38HR, 120 RBI. Again slightly better average hitter who walks a little more then Howard. and he never won anything either(though he may this year because DET is loaded)

        Howard’s best 6 seasons HR and RBI-58HR, 149 RBI, 47 HR, 136 RBI, 48 HR, 146 RBI, 45 HR, 141 RBI, 31 HR, 108 RBI (Missed 20 games due to injury), 33 HR, 116 RBI (Missed 10 games due to injury and played about another 15 hurt)

        So after looking at all the stats I don’t see either Fielder or Votto as far superior hitters. And I don’t think for a minute the Phillies win 5 straight divisions, go to 3 straight NLCS(Winning 2 of them) Won a world series, and lose a world series with either of those guys at first over Howard. So moving forward maybe Howard is a little older and has shown some signs of slowing down but how couldn’t he? He was a beast for 5-6 seasons in a row. And someone would have paid him a ton of money. Your kidding yourself if you don’t think that. So all you haters keep hating, as for me I love Howard and the WS championship he helped bring the starving city of Philadelphia.

      • Gonzo - Apr 9, 2012 at 8:45 PM

        For the record, Fielder signed for 9 years, $214 Million. Which is an average of $24 Mil a year. I may be picking nits, but that’s damn close to $25Mil a year.

        And I think Howard would have gotten $20 Mil a year, even with the injury.

      • phillyphreak - Apr 9, 2012 at 8:46 PM

        Paper is right guys. You have every right to love Howard but don’t let the rose colored glasses prevent you from seeing what he is now.

        2011 (Votto, Fielder, Howard)

        Avg: 0.309, 0.299, 0.253
        OBP: 0.416, 0.415, 0.346
        wOBA: 0.403, 0.408, 0.354
        fWAR: 6.9, 5.5, 1.6

        2009-2011 (Votto, Fielder, Howard)

        Avg: 0.318, 0.287, 0.270
        OBP: 0.418, 0.409, 0.353
        wOBA: 0.419, 0.403, 0.372
        fWAR: 18.9, 15,3, 7.6

        It doesn’t matter how you cherry pick the stats to represent the best years. It’s clear that Howard, as he is currently at the START of his new deal is no where near as valuable as Votto and Fielder. The Phillies didn’t need to lock him up then.

        One more thing

        Age at start of new deal:

        Howard: 32
        Votto: 29 (not including his two years left before the deal kicks in….or if you view it as one long deal 27).
        Fielder: 28

      • paperlions - Apr 9, 2012 at 8:51 PM

        First, you are not looking at “all the stats”, you are looking at poor stats to evaluate the contributions of a player to winning.

        Second, Howard’s only truly great season was 2006, when he put up 6.2 WAR and a wOBA of .436 (those are two metrics that actually do look at all the stats and all the offensive stats, respectively). Howard’s second best season was 2009 (4.6 WAR .393 wOBA).

        Third, in Votto’s 4 seasons he has put up a WAR of 4.0, 4.7, 6.9, and 7.3, with wOBA over .400 each of the last 3 seasons. In other word, he has had two seasons better than anything Howard has done, and every year has been better than Howard’s 3rd best year. Votto is 4 years younger than Howard.

        Fourth, Fielder has put up 3 years with 5.1 to 6.4 WAR and a wOBA from .408 to .420. Fielder is 5 years younger than Howard.

        Finally, Howard has clearly been in decline for a few years, never coming close to replicating his magical 2006 season. Age matters, the player he used to be is long gone. Votto and Fielder are still in their primes.

      • paperlions - Apr 9, 2012 at 8:53 PM

        I’m not saying not to love the guy, that’s what fans do. Enjoy. But you don’t have to have an unrealistic view of the player to love rooting for him.

      • Gonzo - Apr 9, 2012 at 9:01 PM

        But why do I have to look at his salary to root for him properly? Nothing unrealistic about enjoying baseball as if I was a lil kid.

      • paperlions - Apr 9, 2012 at 9:33 PM

        Well, once you realize that your team has limited resources (though great, still limited) and that they are spending $25M/year on a below average 1B….as a fan, that might be of interest to you, regardless of your affinity for a particular player. Maybe people don’t care, but most fans are concerned about such things (i.e. the ability of their team to pay up to add talent to the roster).

      • Gonzo - Apr 9, 2012 at 9:49 PM

        Yanno. My 8 year old nephew loves Howard. He doesn;t give a shit how much money they make. I should just tell him he’s stupid for rooting for a guy who is “overpaid.” and yes, I put that in quotes. Who has the final say in how much a guy is worth?

      • phillyphreak - Apr 9, 2012 at 10:26 PM

        Gonzo, I think you’re missing the point. Sure it’s great to root for Howard and to love him as a player. I do too. But loving and rooting for a player is different than objectively analyzing what that player is worth in $$ figures. $25 million a year for the 1B who wasn’t even a top 10 1B last year is overpaying. At some point the contract could limit what the Phillies do later…

        So there is the fan (root cheer) and the objective observer (critique analyze).

      • Gonzo - Apr 9, 2012 at 10:37 PM

        I DONT CARE HOW MUCH MONEY HE MAKES.

      • Francisco (FC) - Apr 9, 2012 at 11:22 PM

        I think a chunk of his money is also due to being a franchise player and projected to hit the 500 HR mark (assuming he can at least remain a consistent slugger and slam 25-30 a year for the next 5 years). When players become franchise icons, they may start getting paid more than elsewhere. More than they’re worth. (BEEP-BEEP!)

      • sasquash20 - Apr 10, 2012 at 5:15 PM

        Howard isn’t paid for his average or his walks. He is paid for his clutch hits, home runs and runs batted in. I would take Howard over anyone not named Albert Puljouls. Keep your War and other sabermetrics because they mean nothing to me. Howard delivers when we have needed him to deliver. Howard is better then both Votto and Fielder and no war stats will change my mind. Stop hating the guy because you think he is over paid and look at his power numbers.

  12. phillyfanmatt - Apr 9, 2012 at 8:19 PM

    Since Ryan Howard has been in the majors can you name me the player with more rbi’s then him? That’s what he is paid for to drive in runs and that is exactly what he does. At a rate better then anyone in the majors since he broke into the league.

    • sasquash20 - Apr 10, 2012 at 4:59 PM

      Don’t you know that HR and RBI mean nothing. Sabermetrics man! LOL

  13. bleed4philly - Apr 9, 2012 at 8:52 PM

    Fml

  14. phillyfanmatt - Apr 9, 2012 at 9:29 PM

    Once again and no one has answered my question. Who in the MLB has driven in more runs then Ryan Howard over the time he has been in the league. I never said that Prince or Votto were not better hitters. Their stats prove they are. But as a run producer no one has driven in more the Ryan since he joined the show.

    • phillyphreak - Apr 9, 2012 at 9:39 PM

      That’s true and while it’s impressive and he deserves some of the credit, his teammates are superb baserunners…

    • RickyB - Apr 9, 2012 at 9:44 PM

      The question shouldn’t be who in MLB has driven in more runs than Ryan Howard during his years in the league, it should be who has had the most at-bats with RBI opportunities? Far and away that player is Ryan Howard. There are a number of players in the big leagues that have driven in a higher percentage of runs in RBI opportunities. Drop Votto or Fielder into the Phillies lineup over the same time period, and those players would have MORE RBis than Howard, because they are better hitters. Don’t mistake opportunity for run-producing ability.

      • stlouis1baseball - Apr 10, 2012 at 12:13 PM

        Dead on Ricky. I stated as much in a previous post. Put Votto at 1st base in Philly and see what kind of numbers he puts up. Some people wear their rose colored glasses a lot more than others.

    • The Dangerous Mabry - Apr 10, 2012 at 10:27 AM

      Forgetting all of the issues with RBI, the appropriate argument isn’t even an appeal to better statistics. The appropriate argument is:

      How many players are going to drive in more runs DURING HOWARD’S NEW CONTRACT?

      You don’t pay a guy for what he did in the past, or everyone would be scrambling to get Willie Mays under contract for $40 million a season.

  15. aceshigh11 - Apr 9, 2012 at 11:24 PM

    Well, at least the Red Sox aren’t the only big-budget, talent-laden team that is under-performing, although they did get their first win tonight (better than starting 0-6 like last year.

    I think the Phillies and the Yankees will be just fine. The Sox? Them, I’m not so sure about, but basically, the fanbases for all three teams need to calm down and wait for a FEW more games to be played before panicking.

  16. tsi431 - Apr 10, 2012 at 7:39 AM

    The Mets, as much as everyone hates them, got it right in letting Reyes walk. Sure they could have overpaid him, like the Phils did Howard, at $20 mill to keep him. Bought Sandy Alderson is much smarter then Ruben Amaro and knew to cut his losses.

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