Comments on: Great Moments in Statistics: Hisashi Iwakuma gets a save in a 21-8 game

By: sabatimus

sabatimus — Thu, 31 May 2012 22:36:57 +0000

The quality start, as defined, celebrates mediocrity. Granted, obviously not every quality start is a 4.50 ERA start, but I hardly define a 4.50 ERA as quality, and this stat does exactly that.

By: sabatimus

sabatimus — Thu, 31 May 2012 22:32:37 +0000

Wins (and losses) need to be a TEAM stat only; assigning them to pitchers is like assuming the rest of the team did nothing to factor in. Besides, a relief pitcher can get a win if he happened to be on the mound the same inning his team went ahead of the other team. Or, worse, a relief pitcher immediately gets lined up potentially for a win AFTER BLOWING a save.

By: paperlions

paperlions — Thu, 31 May 2012 18:55:39 +0000

…because 6 IP is what happened…Beavan pitched 6 innings and gave up 5 runs.

By: siftin thru nonsense

siftin thru nonsense — Thu, 31 May 2012 18:26:06 +0000

Why 6IP? Make it 5IP. That is all you need for the win. So 5IP and 5 runs or more with a win would be pathetic. I still think the vulture wins are worse than bad outings. At least starters pitch some innings. Blowing a save and then having your home team come back is a joke win in my book and the worst type of win. Wins should be a team statistic anyway.. based on run support of team and bullpen of team a lot of the times.. except for CGs.

By: siftin thru nonsense

siftin thru nonsense — Thu, 31 May 2012 18:22:35 +0000

Why not make your example 5ER in 5IP? 5ip is the minimum you need to get the win. So use 5IP with it.

By: majmayhem

majmayhem — Thu, 31 May 2012 18:21:35 +0000

The GWRBI is soooo clutch! And what better way for tangelizing the intangibles?!? How can anyone not find that useful?

By: natstowngreg

natstowngreg — Thu, 31 May 2012 17:00:50 +0000

And because it’s relevant to millions of fantasy baseball players.

By: Chris Fiorentino

Chris Fiorentino — Thu, 31 May 2012 16:36:21 +0000

FYI…when I say HBT, I don’t mean Craig, Aaron, Matthew, etc. per se. I mean the commenters. For the most part, the HBT bloggers are fair with their writing, and even when Craig seems like he is not, it’s all in good fun. The commenters however…that’s a different story. But as far as I am concerned, everything on HBT is in good fun…and when I rib on 95% of the commenters being left-leaning, I don’t mean that in a bad way. I just mean it in a “pointing-it-out” way.

To each his or her own!!!!!!!!! Just be consistent and be fair is all I ever ask from a blogger(especially for the price I pay to come on here )

By: jlovenotjlo

jlovenotjlo — Thu, 31 May 2012 16:18:37 +0000

Without the save statistic Billy Beane couldn’t continue to trick other General Managers. So I say keep it.

By: Craig Calcaterra

Craig Calcaterra — Thu, 31 May 2012 16:03:59 +0000

I don’t think I’ve given Smoltz crap. Nor would I simply because he’s a conservative Republican. His views are his own and they deserve respect just as I would like mine to be.

I would give him crap if, as you put it, he abandoned his principles when it suited him. I would likewise give a liberal the same crap for the same thing. Because for me party loyalty is stupid.

Have principles. Believe in them and support them and do your best to advance them whatever they are and I will have no problem with you as long as you (a) don’t impose them on others; or (b) aren’t a hypocrite.

By: hasbeen5

hasbeen5 — Thu, 31 May 2012 15:57:29 +0000

I know Craig has given Schilling a lot of crap lately, deservedly so for abandoning his principles when it suited him. But I was wondering if Craig has ever given Smoltz, another Republican, any crap. If not, is it because Smoltz is not as outspoken and inciting about it, or does Braves loyalty trump party loyalty?

By: dan1111

dan1111 — Thu, 31 May 2012 15:46:50 +0000

Oops, I was going to say that the problem is not the win statistic itself, but using it as a key judge of a pitcher’s talent or performance.

By: dan1111

dan1111 — Thu, 31 May 2012 15:45:49 +0000

I have no problem with the win being given in that situation, because it reflects the game outcome. The starter pitched the majority of the game. He did manage to give up fewer runs than the opposition. Pitchers get easy wins, just like teams do. It is part of the game. The win statistic for starters is not the problem; the problem is usin

On the other hand, the save was supposedly designed to capture a relief performance in a high-pressure situation. It isn’t awarded all the time, only when the situation supposedly calls for it. And it fails at what it was designed to do, as this case illustrates.

By: dan1111

dan1111 — Thu, 31 May 2012 15:36:47 +0000

Or just eliminate the 3-inning save completely, since it almost never happens in today’s game.

By: Chris Fiorentino

Chris Fiorentino — Thu, 31 May 2012 15:31:49 +0000

Ricky, the only thing that HBT hates more than Curt Schilling and the Pitcher Win is the SAVE!!! Do not even try to debate it. You will only pull your hair out of your head.

As soon as I saw that Iwakuma got the save last night, my first thought was whether this would be the first or second post after ATH. It was the second. I don’t know why Craig actually sat on it for a post…maybe he thought the Martin-Diaz feud was worse(it was)

By: jamessmyth621

jamessmyth621 — Thu, 31 May 2012 15:31:30 +0000

But if it wasn’t for this silly part of the save rules, we would never have remembered who Wes Littleton was. And we would have been deprived of Tim Kurkjian’s recap on Baseball Tonight after that 30-3 game.

By: dan1111

dan1111 — Thu, 31 May 2012 15:31:23 +0000

I am excited about it. It’s the other 1,233 that were boring.

By: purnellmeagrejr

purnellmeagrejr — Thu, 31 May 2012 15:31:02 +0000

I agreeee with Craig in every respect on this topic.Perhaps it shold be noted that the statistic is kept for the sake of contract leverage for relief pitchers.

By: pharmerbrown

pharmerbrown — Thu, 31 May 2012 15:30:35 +0000

so how about this… wins only apply when the SP has met the criteria for a QS. No QS = No W. That removes RP who were assisted by an offense waking up late in the game, and totally kills the vulture win. For saves, change the criteria slightly… At least 1 IP with the game on the line (3-run lead seems like a lot, but OK), last inning of play, 1 ER or fewer allowed, team wins.

By: pharmerbrown

pharmerbrown — Thu, 31 May 2012 15:26:58 +0000

closer blows the lead in the top of the ninth, his offense walks off in the bottom? Might be the worst “Win” a pitcher could “earn”.

By: hushbrother

hushbrother — Thu, 31 May 2012 14:29:07 +0000

It was a higher leverage save than Wes Littlefield’s in the 30-3 game.

By: sleepyirv

sleepyirv — Thu, 31 May 2012 14:08:11 +0000

Somewhere Wes Littleton is smiling. (Would it really be that hard to rewrite the rules to stop this from happening? Like, you can never get a save if your team leads by six.)

By: RickyB

RickyB — Thu, 31 May 2012 14:03:40 +0000

As mentioned somewhere recently about the quality start, looking at the worst application of the stat should not be the way to condemn said stat. Just because a pitcher gets a quality start for throwing six innings and allowing 3 ER does not mean that a 4.50 ERA is a good ERA. But taking all quality starts into consideration, the combined ERA is barely over 2.00. Not all saves are created equally, either. Occasionally you get a reliever that enters the game with runners on second and third and nobody out in the ninth to preserve a one-run lead (OK, rarely these days, but the point is still valid). While I agree that the save is a misleading statistic and it causes managers to use relievers in a less than optimal manner, condemning the stat based on the three-inning version of the save (which is also quite rare in the big leagues these days) is mostly meaningless.

By: nategearhart

nategearhart — Thu, 31 May 2012 13:59:15 +0000

We care because managers run their bullpen by it and huge contracts are given to relievers because of it. It needs to go away.

By: Detroit Michael

Detroit Michael — Thu, 31 May 2012 13:57:45 +0000

During 2011, just 10 saves out of 1,243 awarded were because the reliever pitched the final 3 or more innings in a victory. I can’t get exceited about the fact that < 1% of the saves are awarded in that manner.

By: randygnyc

randygnyc — Thu, 31 May 2012 13:36:03 +0000

Or the pitcher who comes in for the last out in the 8th inning of a tie game, throws one pitch and gets the out. His team scores during the next at bat and he vultures the win? (or he could come in with the lead, blow the save, and still get the win if his team comes back). Atleast in yesterday’s case, he did pitch 3 innings.

By: hasbeen5

hasbeen5 — Thu, 31 May 2012 13:16:09 +0000

Yes.

By: sabathiawouldbegoodattheeighthtoo

sabathiawouldbegoodattheeighthtoo — Thu, 31 May 2012 13:15:45 +0000

even that is a higher leverage AB than starting an inning clean with a 3 run lead. Make sure you save your best reliever for that nail-biter, but not for a tie game.

By: wondroushippo

wondroushippo — Thu, 31 May 2012 13:11:01 +0000

But is it worse than when a team down 5 loads the bases and a closer can come in for a one-out save?

By: bulldog12b

bulldog12b — Thu, 31 May 2012 13:10:58 +0000

Its his first career save… who cares that its a meaningless stat… Iwakuma has a 6.00 ERA and was in there to eat innings because Beavan was stinking it up. By the way reminds me of Jack Morris pitching to the score.
And Craig I kinda liked thwe GW RBI.