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Roger Clemens is not naive

Jul 5, 2012, 2:00 PM EDT

Former baseball star Roger Clemens smiles as he walks outside Federal District Court in Washington Reuters

At least that’s what his lawyer says:

Clemens adamantly denied using either substance at a 2008 congressional hearing and added that “no matter what we discuss here today, I’m never going to have my name restored.”

Hardin said that’s still the case.

“Roger is not naive,” Hardin said in a telephone interview this week. “I was saying that if 85 percent thought he was guilty before, then this verdict might move the needle to 50 percent.”

Kind of beside the point, I reckon. People who think he did PEDs and care will always think so and always hold it against him. People who think he did PEDs and don’t care won’t ever care. People who don’t think he did PEDs, well, I have yet to meet one who truly thinks that, but their mind probably won’t be changed either.

Fact is, PED-thinking is more like religion than anything else. People believe what they want to believe, and when the beliefs are challenged, they say it doesn’t matter. It’s the downside of baseball and baseball players being treated like heroes and mythological figures for over a century. There’s no room for them to be human, flawed or, in some cases, gifted, without people getting bent out of shape about it.

  1. dexterismyhero - Jul 5, 2012 at 2:03 PM

    no, he is just fat and a liar……………………….

  2. xpensivewinos - Jul 5, 2012 at 2:10 PM

    He’s a miserable, lying, despicable, vile scumbag who cheated and got away with it. if you don’t believe me, just ask his wife.

    And you’re right, I won’t be changing my mind about that.

    • churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Jul 5, 2012 at 2:23 PM

      if you don’t believe me, just ask his wife.

      Oh yeah, because there’s an unbiased opinion.

      • Old Gator - Jul 5, 2012 at 2:34 PM

        Hell, if you asked my ex wife about me, she’d say I did steroids too. At the time, of course, she didn’t complain about it, but…well, women.

  3. stlouis1baseball - Jul 5, 2012 at 2:25 PM

    “He’s a miserable, lying, despicable, vile scumbag who cheated and got away with it. if you don’t believe me, just ask his wife.” Hahaha!
    He cheated with a Country Singer right? Mindy McCready?

    • adenzeno - Jul 5, 2012 at 2:32 PM

      How old was she at that time??

      • churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Jul 5, 2012 at 2:37 PM

        14 or 15 iirc

      • stlouis1baseball - Jul 5, 2012 at 2:52 PM

        She was young. Less than 16 I believe. Although terrible in itself…I was really just playing off Wino’s post. He insinuated he cheated (but cheated on his wife). I agreed.
        He did cheat (on his Wife).

  4. nobody78 - Jul 5, 2012 at 2:31 PM

    I know many people regard believers (an I am a bleliever me) as very dogmatic, and I know that many are, but there are also many who are not. It’s not as simple as people believing what they want to believe and saying it “doesn’t matter” when people make arguments to the contrary. There are thousands of intelligent, thoughtful books devoted to responding to arguments against what the faithful believe, and whether you agree with what they say or not, they do make serious, thoughtful arguments that at least try to take challenges to our beliefs seriously. Anyway, I don’t think it’s fair to say unqualifiedly that challenges don’t matter to us. They do, and very deeply.

    I don’t know whether you meant to include non-believers in your remark, but I know that many of them are thoughtful and open to thinking through

    Well, I don’t mean to hijack the thread to pick on a tossed-off remark you made. To contribute to the subject at hand, I’ll volunteer that I am not sure that Clemens used steroids. A jury found the evidence that he used them – the same evidence used in the Mitchell Report, as best I can tell – inadequate. For me, that’s at least enough to raise some doubt, and I’m certainly not willing to assume that he did use them based on his career arc alone. I’d give him a HoF vote now, whereas I would not have before.

  5. makeham98 - Jul 5, 2012 at 2:40 PM

    Before the Mitchell Report, there was no reported “evidence” of Clemens using peds. The Mitchell Report reported evidence that was laughed out of court. But people “know” that he was a user. . . Great basis to not vote him into the HOF. And Nolan Ryan only took Advil.

  6. delawarephilliesfan - Jul 5, 2012 at 3:05 PM

    He’s not naive? According to Clemens own account – let me repeat that – according to his own account, he had his personal trainer inject him with B12 shots with no witnesses present, despite the fact that he knew first hand (from his wife), that said trainer also injected people with HGH. Remember, that is not some rumor, that is Clemens own story as testified under oath

    So…..rather then get these “B12” shots from someone who can document what is going in, he let a known drug dealer do the shot in total secrecy.

    Clemens is either naive or a liar. So yea….I guess I agree with his Lawyer, Clemens is not naive.

  7. thatyankeedude - Jul 5, 2012 at 3:44 PM

    I hate that Clemens tarnished his reputation by being involved with steroids(I’m not saying he did or didn’t take them, that is on his conscience) but he worked really hard at what he did and it is a shame that everybody won’t ever recognize that about him. Now when you here the name Roger Clemens you instantly think steroids, that kinda sucks for not just him but baseball in general

  8. tuftsb - Jul 5, 2012 at 7:57 PM

    2003 is the dividing line that should be used by those that want clarity to the shades of grey in the steroids kerfuffle. Once MLB started testing and officially via the CBA took steps against their usage, anyone caught after that point should be deemed “unclean”. Anthing before that – without actual evidence, move on, nothing to see here…..

    • Kevin S. - Jul 5, 2012 at 8:46 PM

      Even if somebody did test positive after 2003, there are very clear penalties laid out for failing a drug test. Disqualification from the Hall of Fame was not among them.

  9. largebill - Jul 5, 2012 at 11:45 PM

    People sometimes on issues like this try to group everyone into one of two distinct groups. Problem is life and us humans living it are not that simple to group.
    1. People can foolishly think the court case proves he never used.
    2. People can think the state failed to prove the case; and
    a. they think he may have used steroids once or twice
    b. they think he used regularly in years after leaving Boston
    c. they think he used supplements (like Creatine) but not hardcore steroids.
    3. People can think the state made a poor but sufficient case but the jury was star struck.
    4. People can be completely unsure if he used but still feel he is one of the best pitchers ever regardless of usage.
    5. People can think there is a reasonable chance he used and feel he falls in their estimation from a top five all time pitcher to top fifteen (obviously still a HoF player).
    You could list dozens of other different positions or nuances of already stated positions. However, it is sloppy to argue people are either true believers in one or the other position. Most people have evolving feelings about PED’s. I know I initially almost fell for the stupid narrative that PED’s equal cheating and they should all be damned to hell. Now, I’ve come around to sort not caring and feeling we have to rate players based on what happens on the field. Not caring may be too strong a description. It is more a realization that we have almost no idea which players used what and what benefit they gained from that usage. Clear cut, no doubt Hall of Famers like Bonds and Clemens should still go in easily as even admitting a benefit from PED’s they were so far above their contemporaries it doesn’t matter. However a true borderline case may be harder for some to evaluate. Even if one thinks PED’s are cheating you have to rate it against other forms of “cheating.” I guarantee you there are dozens of Hall of Famers who cheated at various times in their career.

  10. chumthumper - Jul 7, 2012 at 10:33 AM

    Is is true he’s up for the Lenny Dykstra Lifetime Achievement Award?

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