Comments on: Roger Clemens is not naive

By: chumthumper

chumthumper — Sat, 07 Jul 2012 14:33:48 +0000

Is is true he’s up for the Lenny Dykstra Lifetime Achievement Award?

By: largebill

largebill — Fri, 06 Jul 2012 03:45:10 +0000

People sometimes on issues like this try to group everyone into one of two distinct groups. Problem is life and us humans living it are not that simple to group.
1. People can foolishly think the court case proves he never used.
2. People can think the state failed to prove the case; and
a. they think he may have used steroids once or twice
b. they think he used regularly in years after leaving Boston
c. they think he used supplements (like Creatine) but not hardcore steroids.
3. People can think the state made a poor but sufficient case but the jury was star struck.
4. People can be completely unsure if he used but still feel he is one of the best pitchers ever regardless of usage.
5. People can think there is a reasonable chance he used and feel he falls in their estimation from a top five all time pitcher to top fifteen (obviously still a HoF player).
You could list dozens of other different positions or nuances of already stated positions. However, it is sloppy to argue people are either true believers in one or the other position. Most people have evolving feelings about PED’s. I know I initially almost fell for the stupid narrative that PED’s equal cheating and they should all be damned to hell. Now, I’ve come around to sort not caring and feeling we have to rate players based on what happens on the field. Not caring may be too strong a description. It is more a realization that we have almost no idea which players used what and what benefit they gained from that usage. Clear cut, no doubt Hall of Famers like Bonds and Clemens should still go in easily as even admitting a benefit from PED’s they were so far above their contemporaries it doesn’t matter. However a true borderline case may be harder for some to evaluate. Even if one thinks PED’s are cheating you have to rate it against other forms of “cheating.” I guarantee you there are dozens of Hall of Famers who cheated at various times in their career.

By: Kevin S.

Kevin S. — Fri, 06 Jul 2012 00:46:27 +0000

Even if somebody did test positive after 2003, there are very clear penalties laid out for failing a drug test. Disqualification from the Hall of Fame was not among them.

By: tuftsb

tuftsb — Thu, 05 Jul 2012 23:57:39 +0000

2003 is the dividing line that should be used by those that want clarity to the shades of grey in the steroids kerfuffle. Once MLB started testing and officially via the CBA took steps against their usage, anyone caught after that point should be deemed “unclean”. Anthing before that – without actual evidence, move on, nothing to see here…..

By: thatyankeedude

thatyankeedude — Thu, 05 Jul 2012 19:44:54 +0000

I hate that Clemens tarnished his reputation by being involved with steroids(I’m not saying he did or didn’t take them, that is on his conscience) but he worked really hard at what he did and it is a shame that everybody won’t ever recognize that about him. Now when you here the name Roger Clemens you instantly think steroids, that kinda sucks for not just him but baseball in general

By: delawarephilliesfan

delawarephilliesfan — Thu, 05 Jul 2012 19:05:55 +0000

He’s not naive? According to Clemens own account – let me repeat that – according to his own account, he had his personal trainer inject him with B12 shots with no witnesses present, despite the fact that he knew first hand (from his wife), that said trainer also injected people with HGH. Remember, that is not some rumor, that is Clemens own story as testified under oath

So…..rather then get these “B12” shots from someone who can document what is going in, he let a known drug dealer do the shot in total secrecy.

Clemens is either naive or a liar. So yea….I guess I agree with his Lawyer, Clemens is not naive.

By: stlouis1baseball

stlouis1baseball — Thu, 05 Jul 2012 18:52:40 +0000

She was young. Less than 16 I believe. Although terrible in itself…I was really just playing off Wino’s post. He insinuated he cheated (but cheated on his wife). I agreed.
He did cheat (on his Wife).

By: makeham98

makeham98 — Thu, 05 Jul 2012 18:40:19 +0000

Before the Mitchell Report, there was no reported “evidence” of Clemens using peds. The Mitchell Report reported evidence that was laughed out of court. But people “know” that he was a user. . . Great basis to not vote him into the HOF. And Nolan Ryan only took Advil.

By: churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged

churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged — Thu, 05 Jul 2012 18:37:49 +0000

14 or 15 iirc

By: Old Gator

Old Gator — Thu, 05 Jul 2012 18:34:46 +0000

Hell, if you asked my ex wife about me, she’d say I did steroids too. At the time, of course, she didn’t complain about it, but…well, women.

By: adenzeno

adenzeno — Thu, 05 Jul 2012 18:32:28 +0000

How old was she at that time??

By: nobody78

nobody78 — Thu, 05 Jul 2012 18:31:00 +0000

I know many people regard believers (an I am a bleliever me) as very dogmatic, and I know that many are, but there are also many who are not. It’s not as simple as people believing what they want to believe and saying it “doesn’t matter” when people make arguments to the contrary. There are thousands of intelligent, thoughtful books devoted to responding to arguments against what the faithful believe, and whether you agree with what they say or not, they do make serious, thoughtful arguments that at least try to take challenges to our beliefs seriously. Anyway, I don’t think it’s fair to say unqualifiedly that challenges don’t matter to us. They do, and very deeply.

I don’t know whether you meant to include non-believers in your remark, but I know that many of them are thoughtful and open to thinking through

Well, I don’t mean to hijack the thread to pick on a tossed-off remark you made. To contribute to the subject at hand, I’ll volunteer that I am not sure that Clemens used steroids. A jury found the evidence that he used them – the same evidence used in the Mitchell Report, as best I can tell – inadequate. For me, that’s at least enough to raise some doubt, and I’m certainly not willing to assume that he did use them based on his career arc alone. I’d give him a HoF vote now, whereas I would not have before.

By: stlouis1baseball

stlouis1baseball — Thu, 05 Jul 2012 18:25:21 +0000

“He’s a miserable, lying, despicable, vile scumbag who cheated and got away with it. if you don’t believe me, just ask his wife.” Hahaha!
He cheated with a Country Singer right? Mindy McCready?

By: churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged

churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged — Thu, 05 Jul 2012 18:23:35 +0000

if you don’t believe me, just ask his wife.

Oh yeah, because there’s an unbiased opinion.

By: xpensivewinos

xpensivewinos — Thu, 05 Jul 2012 18:10:18 +0000

He’s a miserable, lying, despicable, vile scumbag who cheated and got away with it. if you don’t believe me, just ask his wife.

And you’re right, I won’t be changing my mind about that.

By: dexterismyhero

dexterismyhero — Thu, 05 Jul 2012 18:03:01 +0000

no, he is just fat and a liar……………………….