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Kirk Gibson thinks Melky Cabrera got off easy

Aug 16, 2012, 9:15 AM EDT

Arizona Diamondbacks Photo Day Getty Images

Steve Gilbert of MLB.com shared an interesting scene from the Diamondbacks clubhouse, where manager Kirk Gibson learned about Melky Cabrera‘s suspension for testosterone and told reporters that the Giants outfielder got off easy with a 50-game ban:

He’s had a huge impact against us. My understanding is he admitted to taking it and knew what he took and that’s just not right. If you do something like that, in my mind, it should be much more severe. Part of me says that, enough already. We’ve made a commitment to stopping that kind of activity and we still from time to time find that people are still trying to fool the system.

Maybe they should consider a much stricter penalty. It’s just bull. I would say the majority of the people who are in this game care about the integrity of the game. We’re all committed to that and cleaning it up. Obviously there’s not a big enough deterrent if it continues so I think the penalty needs to be much more severe.

Gibson told Gilbert that he’d be in favor of a one-year suspension, followed by a lifetime ban for a second positive test.

And he’s right about Cabrera having “a huge impact against us.” He hit .452 with two homers and three doubles in eight games versus Arizona this season. Oh, and Cabrera’s second-place team is five games ahead of Gibson’s third-place team in the NL West standings.

  1. lucidsportsfan - Aug 16, 2012 at 9:21 AM

    Agreed. Not only did he admit it, but his numbers show fairly obviously it helped him A LOT: http://www.lucidsportsfan.com/2012_08_12_archive.html#5344875546659058522

    • churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Aug 16, 2012 at 9:49 AM

      The numbers only show that if he hasn’t been tested in the previous two years. Also there’s this tweet from Klaw:

      • bigleagues - Aug 16, 2012 at 10:01 AM

        Uh yeah, this is a rather obtuse viewpoint by Mr. Law.

        If the PED being taken enhances player strength and stamina, then it’s certainly possible that the player is driving the ball harder and perhaps further. Which, in turn, could certainly translate into the balls finding holes and gaps that the player was not previously finding.

      • samu0034 - Aug 16, 2012 at 10:11 AM

        Yeah. It COULD, but it didn’t result in that much of an aberration in other “known” steroids cheats. Point is that BABIP fluctuates a lot from year to year, and it’s stupid to just look at Melky’s stat line and conclude “It’s obvious that all of this comes from cheating”. It’s just dumb.

      • bigleagues - Aug 16, 2012 at 10:17 AM

        samu0034:

        I get that.

        It’s also stupid to assume that the effect is the same with all the varying PED’s available, taken by the known PED cheats, who are different players with differing skill sets and playing in ballparks with varying factors against defenses that aren’t static.

      • churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Aug 16, 2012 at 10:28 AM

        It’s also stupid to assume that the effect is the same with all the varying PED’s available, taken by the known PED cheats, who are different players with differing skill sets and playing in ballparks with varying factors against defenses that aren’t static.

        Agreed, but does that make it okay to merely say “look at this guys stats, of course he was on ‘roids?”

      • sabathiawouldbegoodattheeighthtoo - Aug 16, 2012 at 10:53 AM

        bigleagues, the point of KLaw’s post is to counter your exact arguement by comparing apples to apples. Melky was taking some sort of PED, as were Bonds, McGwire and Palmeiro. So while PEDs may have helped Melky hit the ball harder than non-PED versions of Melky, I don’t think anyone would try to argue that PED Melky has been hitting the ball harder than PED Bonds, or PED McGwire, but his BABIP was better than the best seasons from those guys.

        So, unless the testosterone he was using came from a rabbit’s foot, or a leprechaun, I don’t think it was entirely responsible for his season.

      • djpostl - Aug 16, 2012 at 11:04 AM

        You’re right. Because it’s not like it is entirely possible the PEDs are THE CAUSE of the higher BABIP.

        I mean, it isn’t like the increased bat speed accounts for balls blasting through the infield, rather than being stopped by the SS or 2B & it is wild fantasy to suggest that liners to the gap that normally would have hung up and been caught by OF’ers are now blistering their way to the outfield wall.

        That is just crazy talk.

      • bigleagues - Aug 16, 2012 at 11:12 AM

        Church – NO and that’s not what I’m saying at all.

        Here is what I am saying . . . Keith Law and others are treading perilously close to stating that PED’s, in general, have no real effect on performance. Certainly there are fans and media members who interpret such statements that way.

        The issue is far more complicated and complex than simply labeling someone a ‘cheat’ – or partially ‘excusing’ their actions with a single stat or even multiple stats.

        The players who take the PED’s clearly believe there is a benefit. And if a player taking PED’s – whether it be testosterone or otherwise – corresponds with a substantial year-over-year increase in production, then were supposed to dismiss or overlook the PED usage as a reason for that increase in production? Admittedly, it’s more complicated to assess when a player has steadily improved and is amidst his prime years.

        I think MLB needs to get far more progressive when it comes to PED’s. I think they, and the other major pro sports, need to pool resources to fund and commission legit scientific studies to determine which classes of PED’s are harmful or beneficial; which simply speed recovery; and which obviously boost performance. I do think there is a place for sanctioned PED usage in pro sports. I believe it’s an area of ‘medicine’ that is currently most prominent underground – and that it needs to somehow be brought into the light of day and be discussed more honestly and informatively.

        Right now we are flying blindly and MLB is just pretending they are addressing the issue.

        In the meantime, until such science is conducted and the resulting determinations are made – I believe MLB needs to do everything in its power to ensure that the playing field is as even as possible – mainly because we do not have quantified conclusive evidence of what is safe and therapeutic and what is specifically performance influencing.

        Having said that MLB is clearly not doing enough. Not just because of Melky, but because I do believe Conte when he says he has spoken with current MLB stars who he is convinced are engaged in using PED’s – even if his guess of 50% is arbitrary and without factual foundation.

        BTW, the performance that has stood out clearly to me this season as being suspicious is that of Carlos Ruiz.

        As for Melky, if post-suspension he returns to something closer to his pre-2011 production, what will the story be then? That he is having a stretch of bad luck?

      • bigleagues - Aug 16, 2012 at 11:14 AM

        Sabathia . . .

        Sorry, my last post should have been directed to you, not Church.

        Had a little insomnia last night, now I’m delirious.

      • bigleagues - Aug 16, 2012 at 11:16 AM

        Holy crap, I think I’m retiring for the day. Forget my last post! That longer post is my response to Church.

        Anyone got some amphetamines? Is that even allowed on HBT? Or is that considered an #HBTPED?

      • bigleagues - Aug 16, 2012 at 11:33 AM

        Sabathia,

        I don’t think that PED’s are entirely responsible for his season either.

        However, we’re not just talking about this season, as I believe, from what I’ve read, that it is believed that Cabrera hadn’t been tested for two seasons previous to this seasons test.

        If that’s true then his 2011 season is under scrutiny as well and he did have a jump in production from pre-2011 vs 2011-2012 – noticeably in the context of OPS+, bWAR & fWAR. Although, I will concede that other numbers are somewhat inconclusive given his age and his decent 2009 season.

      • bigleagues - Aug 16, 2012 at 11:36 AM

        Sabathia,

        Also, I get your overall point, but let’s be clear BABIP doesn’t measure or attempt to show how hard a ball is being hit as your post seemingly would contend as worded.

      • bigleagues - Aug 16, 2012 at 11:51 AM

        Here’s some numbers that offer some greater context and insight into Melky’s performance over the past two seasons. Not only has his BABIP for the past two seasons shot way above his career average over the 5 previous seasons, he has had his numbers rise even higher this season, despite playing the bulk of his games in parks that favor Pitching (AIR)

        So while Melky’s 2012 BABIP is higher than that of any career bests from Bonds, Palmeiro or McGwire – I’m not sure what that is supposed to mean because Melky’s BABIP over the past two seasons is far higher than his career average and those three players were all power hitters – so it’s not really an apples to apples comparison. It’s sort of a bizarre point to make on Law’s part actually.

                                                                                    
        Year    Age   Tm   PA  RC RC/G AIR BAbip   BA lgBA  OPS lgOPS OPS+ TotA  ISO
        2005     20  NYY   19   1  1.8 103  .235 .211 .266 .421  .750   14 .267 .000
        2006     21  NYY  524  67  5.1 112  .309 .280 .276 .752  .781   95 .710 .111
        2007     22  NYY  612  70  4.3 108  .295 .273 .272 .718  .765   88 .648 .117
        2008     23  NYY  453  42  3.4 108  .271 .249 .272 .641  .767   68 .556 .092
        2009     24  NYY  540  67  4.7 112  .288 .274 .273 .752  .781   93 .696 .142
        2010     25  ATL  509  53  4.0 101  .288 .255 .260 .671  .738   83 .603 .098
        2011     26  KCR  706 102  5.6  98  .332 .305 .257 .809  .729  121 .741 .164
        2012     27  SFG  501  93  7.8  91  .379 .346 .246 .906  .702  158 .898 .170
        8 Yrs            3864 495  4.9 104  .309 .284 .265 .752  .751  101 .690 .130
        162 Game Avg.     636  81  4.9 104  .309 .284 .265 .752  .751  101 .690 .130
        

        Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original TableGenerated 8/16/2012.

      • churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Aug 16, 2012 at 12:08 PM

        Here is what I am saying . . . Keith Law and others are treading perilously close to stating that PED’s, in general, have no real effect on performance. Certainly there are fans and media members who interpret such statements that way.

        I don’t believe he’s saying they have no real effect on performance, I believe he’s saying that our collective understanding of PEDs and their effects isn’t sufficient, and that many of us exaggerate the effect of PEDs on individuals. It’s hair splitting, but can we agree on that?

        I completely agree on the need(s) for more testing/scientific research. It’d never happen though, knowingly giving individuals steroids and testing the effects.

        As for Melky, if post-suspension he returns to something closer to his pre-2011 production, what will the story be then? That he is having a stretch of bad luck?

        And what if it doesn’t? Lots of people wanted to point out Braun’s numbers last year as evidence of his use, but this year he’s putting up almost the same peripheral numbers as last year (lower BABIP).

      • churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Aug 16, 2012 at 12:13 PM

        So while Melky’s 2012 BABIP is higher than that of any career bests from Bonds, Palmeiro or McGwire – I’m not sure what that is supposed to mean because Melky’s BABIP over the past two seasons is far higher than his career average and those three players were all power hitters – so it’s not really an apples to apples comparison. It’s sort of a bizarre point to make on Law’s part actually.

        He’s using BABIP as a counter to people who are merely saying “look at his numbers, they are so much higher than before; therefore, he must be using steroids”. He’s not making an argument, his responding to critics with it. So for those who think the above, and think it’s all steroid related, Klaw is quoting how much higher his BABIP is compared to other users. Wouldn’t you assume those players would have astronomically high BABIP if steroids were a major factor in his/their performance?

        Now, if someone wanted to make an argument that it’s a combination of high BABIP and steroid use, they could point out things like his career high in ISO the last two years. But someone could then counter with Cabrera is in his age 27 season, which is the peak for most hitters.

        So how much are the steroids actually responsible for his career numbers? Many of us want to push the conversation beyond “If super high career numbers, then steroids” without the possibility of any number of additional factors.

      • sabathiawouldbegoodattheeighthtoo - Aug 16, 2012 at 12:20 PM

        bigleagues: I am not saying that PED’s = increased BABIP. I was arguing against such an assertion, that you and djpostl seemed to be making in your posts. BABIP varies greatly and has a huge impact on a player’s numbers. Trout has a higher BABIP than Melky, but I don’t think that is evidence he uses PEDs.

        Frankly, this is what I think: using a PED does not help anyone play baseball better, but it CAN help a person train harder. It is not cheating at baseball as much as it is cheating at conditioning. When Melky was fat in Atlanta he pretty much sucked. He then got himself into much better physical shape and played better. Could he have gotten himself into the exact same physical condition with or without PEDs? Yes. But PED’s would (did) make it easier.

        So, I don’t really believe that PED’s make a better player. I just think PED’s make it easier for that player to reach his maximum athletic potential. I think that is a pretty big difference. Even more to the point, I don’t think that every good thing a player does after taking PEDs is a direct result of his taking PEDs. That player could have done all of the same things clean, but path to get there is a little easier/lazier with the drugs.

    • redguy12588 - Aug 16, 2012 at 9:52 AM

      Yes, steroids clearly inflated his RBI totals, great investigative reporting!

    • djpostl - Aug 16, 2012 at 11:08 AM

      Comparing Melky to McGwire or Bonds is a straw man argument. Those guys were dead pull, swing for HR hitters who had nowhere near the same approach at the plate Cabrera does.

      The only unique thing about Cabrera is that he seems to be the first slap-hitting, spray it to all fields guy who has popped positive on one of these things.

      To argue that harder hit grounders and line drives couldn’t benefit from PEDs and increase your BABIP is some mighty fine rationalization.

      • churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Aug 16, 2012 at 12:17 PM

        The only unique thing about Cabrera is that he seems to be the first slap-hitting, spray it to all fields guy who has popped positive on one of these things.

        There have been far worse hitters who have been caught using PEDs, Alex Sanchez for one.

      • sabathiawouldbegoodattheeighthtoo - Aug 16, 2012 at 12:34 PM

        Bonds hit quite a few grounders. He was stronger than Melky. PED’s don’t tell the whole story

      • paperlions - Aug 16, 2012 at 12:52 PM

        Really? You might want to look at the history of guys busted for PED use….far more slap hitters than power hitters.

      • paperlions - Aug 16, 2012 at 2:12 PM

        Feel free to peruse the lists, mostly small slap hitter types and pitchers.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_suspended_for_performance-enhancing_drugs

  2. dawgpoundmember - Aug 16, 2012 at 9:25 AM

    ah no, if the penalty was worse for admitting you cheated, then you just keep lying and deny deny deny, 50 games for first time offenders, dont cut him a break or make the consequences worse for facing them.

    • drunkenhooliganism - Aug 16, 2012 at 9:28 AM

      I agree. It was kinda refreshing to see him own it.

      • koufaxmitzvah - Aug 16, 2012 at 10:45 AM

        This is just the weirdest line of thinking ever.

        James Holmes admitted to police he shot up a movie theater full of people. How refreshing.

        WHAT???

      • koufaxmitzvah - Aug 16, 2012 at 10:47 AM

        And, no, I am not drawing a comparison between taking steroids and murder.

        But both Holems and Cabrera decided to do what they did, probably after thinking about it. Melky says, I can make more money if I take something I shouldn’t take because my numbers will be extra heavy.

        And folks here are saying, How refreshing he admitted fraud.

        I’m not trying to rip on people, but this line of thinking is rather toxic.

      • deathmonkey41 - Aug 16, 2012 at 11:19 AM

        Geez, please know your porn history before making such statements. It was not a theater- it was a townhouse. And they bludgeoned people- they didn’t shoot them. Making inaccurate statements about porn-related stuff makes Ron Jeremy cry. He also didn’t admit to anything.

        “As a result of the palm print found at the scene, Holmes was arrested and charged with four counts of murder in March, 1982. The prosecutor, Los Angeles District Attorney Ron Coen, attempted to prove Holmes was a willing participant who betrayed the Wonderland Gang after not getting a full share of the loot from the robbery of Nash’s house. Holmes’ court-appointed defense lawyers, Earl Hanson and Mitchell Egers, successfully presented Holmes as one of the victims, having been forced by the real killers to give them entry to the house where the murders took place. Holmes was acquitted of all criminal charges on June 26, 1982. Refusing to testify and cooperate with authorities, he spent 110 days in jail for contempt of court.”

      • drunkenhooliganism - Aug 16, 2012 at 11:52 AM

        Death Monkey- James Holmes is the shitstain that shot up the movie theater in colorado.

        Koufax- It’s refreshing that he admitted it and didn’t say that it must have been some supplement that someone slipped into his cereal. He screwed up and he’s taking responsibility.

      • deathmonkey41 - Aug 16, 2012 at 12:10 PM

        Doh- I saw the last name and thought John. My bad. They’re both killers anyway.

      • sabatimus - Aug 16, 2012 at 1:46 PM

        “And, no, I am not drawing a comparison between taking steroids and murder.”

        Actually, that’s exactly what you’re doing.

      • koufaxmitzvah - Aug 20, 2012 at 9:39 AM

        Acutally, Sabatimus, I am making comparisons between folks who “owned up” to what they did.

        Because, see, that’s what I wrote about.

  3. drunkenhooliganism - Aug 16, 2012 at 9:28 AM

    If I knew that steroids could work this well, I would have taken them when I played.

    • paperlions - Aug 16, 2012 at 12:53 PM

      They don’t, so I wouldn’t fret.

  4. artthoumad - Aug 16, 2012 at 9:31 AM

    I think the 50 games is enough because it comes with a ruined reputation and media scrutiny for the rest of his career . And in Melky’s case, he’s not going get paid anywhere near the money he was suppose to before he got caught.

    • samu0034 - Aug 16, 2012 at 9:55 AM

      I dunno, I think Kirk’s idea is pretty good. 1-year for a first offense, lifetime ban for a second offense. That’s some deterrent right there.

      • deathmonkey41 - Aug 16, 2012 at 1:25 PM

        Yeah, like the baseball union would ever agree to that. Like most unions, their reason for existence is to take accountability away from their members.

    • theawesomersfranchise - Aug 16, 2012 at 11:42 AM

      He’s not going to get paid only because of timing.
      Risk 50 games to get that contract signed is totally worth it.

      The owners need to be allowed to void contracts and seek compensation in these cases, maybe then they will stop.

  5. natslady - Aug 16, 2012 at 9:41 AM

    I think we have a clean team, I hope we have a clean team, I pray we have a clean team. But I don’t know we have a clean team–does Gibson? (A couple of Nats minor leaguers were suspended this year, but it was for “recreational” drugs.).

    He has a case, sort of. The Nats went 5-1 against the Giants, and the 1 that beat us wasn’t Melky Cabrera, it was Madison Bumgarner. I doubt one cheating player on an opposition team is keeping the D-Backs from the division championship, but they have nine more games against SF, so let’s see.

  6. unlost1 - Aug 16, 2012 at 9:56 AM

    Anyone think Kirk Gibson played the duration of his career completely natural?

    • 1historian - Aug 16, 2012 at 9:59 AM

      yes

      any evidence otherwise?

      • churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Aug 16, 2012 at 10:21 AM

        any evidence otherwise?

        Judge: Mr. Hutz w’ve been in here for four hours. Do you have any evidence at all?
        Hutz: Well, Your Honor. We’ve plenty of hearsay and conjecture. Those are kinds of evidence.

      • delawarephilliesfan - Aug 16, 2012 at 10:41 AM

        @church

        Judge Snyder: [bangs gavel] The Court rules in favor of Mr. Burns. I find he is clearly the boy’s biological father!
        Lionel Hutz: [hammers a nail] Excuse me, Judge, these won’t be ready until Thursday.
        Marge Simpson: [to Homer] You know, we’ve really got to stop hiring him.

      • schlom - Aug 16, 2012 at 1:39 PM

        He played football, I think there’s a fairly strong chance that he took steroids.

      • deathmonkey41 - Aug 16, 2012 at 1:45 PM

        Hutz: Mr. Simpson, don’t you worry. I watched Matlock in a bar last night. The sound wasn’t on, but I think I got the gist of it.

    • samu0034 - Aug 16, 2012 at 10:14 AM

      As long as we’ll admit that greenies are a performance enhancing drug, then it’s probably pretty unlikely. Further, I’d be pretty surprised if a guy like him never had a cortisone injection at some point in his career.

    • delawarephilliesfan - Aug 16, 2012 at 10:33 AM

      After turning 31, he hit 80 Home Runs over 7 seasons, and his batting average was .250.

      I see no Perfomance Enhacement there at all

      • sabathiawouldbegoodattheeighthtoo - Aug 16, 2012 at 10:57 AM

        Imagine how much worse he would have been without the juice!

        I have no idea if he took anything, but I would not use bad numbers as evidence any more than I would use good numbers as evidence. It is just not as clean of an “if A then B” type relationship between taking drugs and good performance.

      • delawarephilliesfan - Aug 16, 2012 at 11:49 AM

        It is not definitive proof, but bad numbers are certainly “evidence” of not juicing.

      • sabathiawouldbegoodattheeighthtoo - Aug 16, 2012 at 12:24 PM

        How so? Steroids, if they help, could possibly make an atrocious baseball player merely terrible. A step up for sure, but not really good. PEDs may help a player improve, but that is a relative term.

      • delawarephilliesfan - Aug 16, 2012 at 1:24 PM

        Again – it is not defintive proof, but it is evidence. I can’t spend my entire day discussing what the word “evidence” means, so Google it.

        As long as we are on the topic – my post was pointing out that there is no “evidence” that he did take steroids. Do you believe there is?

      • sabathiawouldbegoodattheeighthtoo - Aug 16, 2012 at 1:48 PM

        I realize you are a busy person (though not too busy to post repeatedly in the comments of a blog) so I appreciate you turning me on to the Google.

        According to your top-notch research tool, Evidence is an American MC and member of the rap group Dilated Peoples, and evidence is that which tends to prove or disprove something;

        Since PEDs can only possibly Enhance a person’s performance relative to what they did without PEDs, and since we can’t know what a person who used PEDs would have done in the exact same circumstances without having used PEDs, I would still contend that looking at a persons numbers provides neither evidence that he used or did not use.

      • delawarephilliesfan - Aug 16, 2012 at 2:01 PM

        Time to reveal the truth – I was simply trying to lead you to the site you ended up on.

        Sincerely,
        Richard De La Font
        Manager, Dialated Peoples

    • georgebrett - Aug 16, 2012 at 2:57 PM

      100% yes.

    • huffdaddyco - Aug 16, 2012 at 3:03 PM

      No way he didn’t juice. I mean, c’mon, there was no way he would have gotten that mustache to come in so fully and beautifully without some help.

  7. bigleagues - Aug 16, 2012 at 9:57 AM

    This morning on his radio show, Steve Phillips suggested that the next step for MLB is to implement penalties for teams who look the other way. He made the following point:

    If the Giants were given the choice of 118 Games of 2012 Melky Cabrera-level PED enhanced production vs. a couple of days of bad press . . . without team penalties wouldn’t the Giants or any other offensively challenged team take Cabrera every time?

    Later in the show Phillips stated that he’d

    -suspend Cabrera for 75 games (because the benefit of the drugs would be lessened further);
    - take away any awards won by the player during that season;
    - and, in the case of the Giants and Cabrera, would take 10 Wins away from the team “to level the playing field”.

    He admits that last part is arbitrary but feels the teams need to have an investment beyond losing the player.

    • geoknows - Aug 16, 2012 at 10:30 AM

      To implement penalties for “teams who look the other way” implies that the Giants knew Melky was using and chose to ignore it. That’s an assumption you can’t make. And how do you decide which ten wins they should vacate?

      • bigleagues - Aug 16, 2012 at 10:48 AM

        I’m not taking a position on it either way. . . just reporting what the opinion of one former GM is.

        Personally, I think the anonymous player that Buster Olney reported speaking to had it right . . . disqualification from the post-season (if it hasn’t occurred yet) and/or automatic termination of remainder of contract. The former would open all sorts of questions with what then would be done with players, such as Braun who were revealed after the post-season. The latter would be the most effective IMHO – afterall what is the motivation for a player to use PED’s in the first place? MONEY.

      • natslady - Aug 16, 2012 at 3:57 PM

        And how do you decide which ten wins they should vacate?

        If you do it, you would have to take away wins, but not give them to another team, i.e., the Giants would play a 158-game season, but with all stats intact. As was pointed out, however, you’d have to have pretty good evidence that the team had evidence and looked the other way, that would be pretty hard to prove. A lot harder than random testing. I guess you could get a warrant and wire the place… ;)

    • natslady - Aug 16, 2012 at 10:39 AM

      How about Cabrera’s WAR to-date? So take away 4.5 wins==> let’s round down, 4 wins.

      • Alex K - Aug 16, 2012 at 11:48 AM

        It’s still a terrible idea, but at least you’re not using an arbitrary number of games.

    • flaviusflav - Aug 16, 2012 at 10:39 AM

      Considering I doubt they could ever come up with a way to fairly adjust a team’s record during the season, the idea that taking away wins from a previous season is supposed to be an effective deterrent blows my mind.

      Seriously, when they do this in college football, for example, does anyone care, even a little bit? Like USC forefitting its title because of Reggie Bush. They won, you can’t undo that with words.

      In the case of baseball, if they take away wins, it would actually be a plus because it would improve the team’s draft position.

      If they are going to get penalized, it has to be something like forefitting draft picks completely. Any monetary penalty will just get passed on to the fans.

  8. delawarephilliesfan - Aug 16, 2012 at 10:18 AM

    Stricter penalties are fine – but the reality is guys continue to use because they think they can get away with it. I have a hard time believing anyone thinks 50 games is no big deal. Maybe a few more players would stay away with the 1 year thing, but by in large, guys do it because they think they can get away with it.

    MLB needs stricter testing

    • churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Aug 16, 2012 at 11:10 AM

      MLB has had former MVP’s, all the way down to the 25th man on the roster, and plenty of minor leaguers caught? How much stricter does MLB need to get?

      • delawarephilliesfan - Aug 16, 2012 at 11:53 AM

        Frequency, radomness, better controls so cheaters can’t try to beat the wrap (rhymes with Brian Shaun).

        My point it that the goal should be that players don’t even try in the first place> clearly guys who got caught think they can get away with it. Certainly that always be the case to soem extent. But set up a situation where the Melky Cabrera’s and Freddy Galvis’ know they will get caught if they do it

      • churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Aug 16, 2012 at 12:21 PM

        My point it that the goal should be that players don’t even try in the first place> clearly guys who got caught think they can get away with it

        I don’t think you can ever make it like this. Certain crimes are punishable by death, but it hasn’t stopped people from committing them. Manny Ramirez knew the consequences of using PEDs, since he got busted once already, and that didn’t stop him from using a second time.

      • delawarephilliesfan - Aug 16, 2012 at 1:37 PM

        But I would submit that people committing crimes punishable by death also think they will get away with it.

        And as I said, there will always be people who try to cheat no matter what. But Kirk Gibsons point is that a stricter punishment would stop people. I disagree, because I don’t think players taking these drugs say “Ahhhhh, who cares about 50 games”. They take it because they think they will get away with it. If players knew they would get tested monthly – and maybe even they day after a test – many (but not all) players would realize they cannot beat the system.

        I am fine with stricter penalties, but I do not think that will address the fact that players think they can beat the wrap. People (correctly) think they can run stop signs and get away with it. They don’t think that when they see a cop!

  9. spudatx - Aug 16, 2012 at 10:24 AM

    Gibson’s team is 4-5 against the Giants this year, which is better than their overall winning percentage. How big of an impact does he really feel Melky had? He can’t be talking about the wild card spot the D’Backs are chasing, because there are three teams in the other divisions ahead of them who could very realistically beat out the Giants and the D’Backs. I get Gibson’s point… that he wants to be reality… but, Melky didn’t really impact his season all that much. The D’Backs are a .500 team with or without Melky Cabrera cheating.

  10. willclarkgameface - Aug 16, 2012 at 10:56 AM

    Bud Selig would never do such a thing and the MLBPA would be up in arms, wondering why they’d even consider such a thing, that these players are just trying to make a living by working hard and being good people.

    ARE WE THAT FUCKING STUPID TO BELIEVE EITHER SIDE?

    It’s this kind of nonsense that makes me wonder why I watch sporting events to begin with. What is the reward as a fan? NOTHING. What do we get? We get MLB posed to us as “romantic” and part of the “fabric of our upbringing” and what is it for real? FUCKING WWF! It’s all fake.

    Gibby is right. If MLB REALLY wanted to do something about this steroid problem, they’d make the punishment much more strict and do REAL testing like the Olympics. This shit they have in MLB is sissy testing. Look at Ryan Braun…”waaahhhh….the handler didn’t take care of it to the letter of the regulation so I should be given a pass, right?”

    Lame. It’s all lame.

    There must be something better to fill my time with than this cheater bull shit.

    • ptfu - Aug 16, 2012 at 1:01 PM

      You were doing OK until you attacked Ryan Braun, which ended any sympathy for your outrage. You can’t argue for tougher testing and then criticize Braun instead of the handler. Better testing regulations and execution means either Braun’s uncompromised sample would have come up clean, or he would have been suspended.

      “There must be something better to fill my time with than this cheater bull shit.”

      There is. Leave this site and find it.

  11. sabathiawouldbegoodattheeighthtoo - Aug 16, 2012 at 11:06 AM

    Gibson needs to talk to the MLBPA. I think they are the biggest problem with this whole thing. They represent the players who cheat, and the players who don’t cheat: both sides of this particular issue. Yet, they always seem to vigorously defend the cheaters to the detriment of the non-cheaters. Do they realize that they hurt the clean players every time they defend the cheaters?

    Even better than canceling the player’s contract, why not drop the salary to league minimum and add a team option for one more year at the same? Voiding the contract entirely might hurt the dirty player’s teammates and team more than the player himself. (If a player wanted to get out of a team-friendly contract he could just take some Ritalin and be free while still saving face, then go out and sign a new, bigger deal.) Let him finish his contract at league minimum (still more than I will ever make) and push him farther away from his next free agent deal.

    • churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Aug 16, 2012 at 11:12 AM

      Because the job of a union isn’t to protect one subset of members vs another subset, it’s to protect the entire group. That’s how union’s work. Also, the MLBPA is definitely the strongest union in pro sports, and probably one of the strongest unions in the US. They won’t, or at least shouldn’t, agree to more stringent rules without getting something from MLB.

      • sabathiawouldbegoodattheeighthtoo - Aug 16, 2012 at 11:24 AM

        But with such a blatant conflict of interests and one-sided approach, the MLBPA is harming more of their members than they are helping on this issue. And if I were a clean player I would be hopping mad about that. Clean players are the only people who seem to have no voice in this whole thing, and they are the ones who have been harmed the most.

      • churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Aug 16, 2012 at 12:22 PM

        Just curious, but how are clean players being harmed in this? Salaries have gone through the roof in the last 15 years. Baseball itself is pulling in record numbers. You could almost make the case that steroids directly helped the entire union by making all of it’s members more wealthy.

      • sabathiawouldbegoodattheeighthtoo - Aug 16, 2012 at 1:00 PM

        How do PED using players harm clean players? Let me count the ways:

        1. Baseball is largely a one-on-one sport. For a player like melky to do well means a pitcher did poorly. That pitcher’s numbers suffer. That harms the pitchers performance and stats, which impact his earnings potential and his legacy.

        2. Melky playing better meant that guys like Belt and Blanco had a harder time cracking the roster and the lineup. If they can’t play, they can’t accumulate any stats or increase their earnings potential.

        3. An older player, like Huff, might be released outright if a guy like Melky is outperforming him with the assistance of PEDs.

        4. A player with PED assisted numbers could land a big free agent contract that would have otherwise gone to a clean player.

        5. The clean players on the Giants are harmed because their path to the playofs is more difficult by losing one of their everyday players at a time when it is difficult to replace his production. Making or missing the playoffs can have a HUGE impact on a player’s legacy and earnings potential.

        6. Gibson’s dbacks are hurt because they may miss the playoffs in part because of Melky helping the Giants to beat them.

        7. Guys in the HoF are seeing their records broken and their place on all-time lists drop precipitously as PED assisted players ascend.

        I’m sure there are more, but this is what I came up with in 5 minutes. Ask the clean players and you will probably find many more reasons…

      • keepthisrealbro - Aug 16, 2012 at 4:29 PM

        @ Sabathia you do know Blanco has 3 hits in his last 30+ at bats right? thats why he is on the pine. As for belt, you do know that we have Pablo who plays 1st on rare occasions, Posey who has been splitting time there while Sanchez catches. Really talking about huff? That guy is OVER THE HILL. 3 trips to the DL this year i believe twice for the same knee (one was family related). Why would the giants want to pick up his 10 million dollar option next season?

  12. stevem7 - Aug 16, 2012 at 11:11 AM

    Yes and many of us still wonder what PED Kirk was on when he hit that HR and limped around the basepaths on 1 leg. Total case of sour grapes on Gibson’s part and everyone knows it. And what a wussy with his crying about the existing rules. He doesn’t like it than he should swear out a citizens complaint and have Melky and everyone else who ever tested positive arrested for breaking the law. But Kirk is like that Texas guy you always hear about ….. BIG hat, no herd.

  13. Old Gator - Aug 16, 2012 at 11:16 AM

    In the immortal words of Colonel Klink, Melky should be court martialed, shot, and sent to the Russian front.

    • Old Gator - Aug 16, 2012 at 11:16 AM

      Then eaten.

  14. stlouis1baseball - Aug 16, 2012 at 11:32 AM

    This is something that I have often wanted to discuss.
    Is it me or does Kirk Gibson look like a completely different person (compared to his playing days)?
    I mean…I realize he doesn’t have facial hair but the differences (in my opinion) are unreal.
    He looks like a totally different dude.

  15. materialman80 - Aug 16, 2012 at 11:35 AM

    Gibson is right. Cabrera and all the other cheater/druggies should be put out of baseball.

  16. hushbrother - Aug 16, 2012 at 11:36 AM

    Does the AL get to have home field advantage in the World Series now? *eyeroll*

  17. foreverchipper10 - Aug 16, 2012 at 12:38 PM

    We will see what his stance is if a D’Backs player gets popped. Not saying that one is doing something wrong, but just for reference.

    • GoneYickitty - Aug 16, 2012 at 12:44 PM

      I don’t even agree with Gibson’s take on this, but taking that line indicates you have no idea what kind of man Gibson is.

      • foreverchipper10 - Aug 16, 2012 at 1:15 PM

        I won’t lie and say that I do know what kind of man he is because I don’t. I was just making a broad statement. If one of his players were to be suspended for a positive test and Gibson took the same stance I would think he is a better man than I am.

  18. theboysofdallas - Aug 16, 2012 at 12:47 PM

    50 is enough especially since he admitted right away

  19. seeinred87 - Aug 16, 2012 at 1:17 PM

    This gives me an opportunity to say what I learned several years ago (and I say it as a Tigers fan):

    Kirk Gibson is a douche.

    • georgebrett - Aug 16, 2012 at 3:10 PM

      Really? Why? Do you know him?

      • seeinred87 - Aug 16, 2012 at 3:32 PM

        I wouldn’t say I know him, but I used to see him all the time when I was in high school. One of his sons was in the grade above me.

        I figured it might net me some downthumbs, but I say it based on personal experiences. I saw him pull the “do you know who I am” card at a hockey arena one time, and witnessed him being really rude to people on several occasions. Kirk Gibson was always my mom’s favorite player. She loved him. Until she saw what an asshole he is in real life, anyway.

  20. georgebrett - Aug 16, 2012 at 2:47 PM

    Do you know how you clean up PED’s in baseball. 2 things, you not only suspend the player for a year without pay, but you also take away any wins the team had with that player. Every Monday you have a mandatory test for every player in baseball and by weeks end you find out who is cheating the rest of the league. You would never have to forfeit more than 7 games but it would hurt really bad if you did. Just imagine how much the clubs would care now.

    Melkey Cabrera could care less that he was suspended because he has a guaranteed contract that he can come back to. And he knows that there will be a club out there that will sign him even if he is released.

  21. nadsiantheory - Aug 16, 2012 at 2:57 PM

    How about a team penalty too?

  22. michflaguy - Aug 16, 2012 at 3:39 PM

    And baseball fans wonder why so many sports fans do NOT care about baseball. These guys have been “juicing” for years, and MLB has done absolutely NOTHING to truly stop it. The strike of the mid-90′s scared the crap out of MLB front office, and now they will not do anything to mess with ratings…even police their own league for ‘roid abuse.
    Football
    Basketball
    College football
    MMA
    College basketball
    Hockey
    and then Baseball
    That’s the order for the American sports fan

  23. stairwayto7 - Aug 16, 2012 at 4:49 PM

    I guess he forgot about his 3rd base coach Matt Williams doing roids!

  24. gmsingh - Aug 16, 2012 at 4:51 PM

    Weird, if Melky got off easy what the hell does Kirk Gibson have to say about Ryan Braun?

  25. delawarephilliesfan - Aug 16, 2012 at 1:55 PM

    We have the detail that Halman is dead. And we have the detail that the defense tacitly admits their client did it.

    On a side note – is anyone sane when they kill someone? You think Sammy “The Bull” Gravano doesn’t have anger management issues?

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