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	<title>Comments on: Leo Mazzone calls Strasburg shutdown &#8220;pathetic,&#8221; forgets what happened to Steve Avery</title>
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	<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/16/leo-mazzone-calls-strasburg-shutdown-pathetic-forgets-what-happened-to-steve-avery/</link>
	<description>Baseball. Baseball. And then a bit more baseball.</description>
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		<title>By: professormaddog31</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/16/leo-mazzone-calls-strasburg-shutdown-pathetic-forgets-what-happened-to-steve-avery/comment-page-1/#comment-348847</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[professormaddog31]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Aug 2012 17:05:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=191587#comment-348847</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If I remember correctly the only days they didn&#039;t have a golf outing was the day they started and travel days. Otherwise, all golf all the time.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I remember correctly the only days they didn&#8217;t have a golf outing was the day they started and travel days. Otherwise, all golf all the time.</p>
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		<title>By: professormaddog31</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/16/leo-mazzone-calls-strasburg-shutdown-pathetic-forgets-what-happened-to-steve-avery/comment-page-1/#comment-348834</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[professormaddog31]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Aug 2012 16:56:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=191587#comment-348834</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Smoltz&#039;s arm was an elbow problem for the longest time. It was a bone chip graveyard. From what I read he would have had issues with the elbow no matter where he played.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Smoltz&#8217;s arm was an elbow problem for the longest time. It was a bone chip graveyard. From what I read he would have had issues with the elbow no matter where he played.</p>
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		<title>By: natslady</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/16/leo-mazzone-calls-strasburg-shutdown-pathetic-forgets-what-happened-to-steve-avery/comment-page-1/#comment-348444</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[natslady]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Aug 2012 02:23:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=191587#comment-348444</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, that was discussed also, believe me... The problem is, what if you do that (for let&#039;s say, mid-June to the All-Star Break) and he comes back and actually pulls a hamstring?  Then you&#039;ve lost not one but two months of his pitching.   So yes, if you could read into the future, then you might do that, although as Rizzo says, a shutdown/rampup program is not the best program to develop him for the rigors of next season.    And in the spring, we had other problems, the back of our rotation was not stable.   Having Stras early in the season helped a lot.    

You could conceivably start his season two months late (also discussed, but in hindsight).   However, if you don&#039;t make it to October, then he pitches only a 4 month season, which is not desirable for 2013.  

It did occur to me, however, to wonder why teams don&#039;t stagger the starting months of their staffs, especially young staffs, bringing in a fresh arm for the second half of the season.   We did that, in essence, with Lannan in triple-A.   It wasn&#039;t necessary (he has pitched only in two double-headers, so far) but if one of our starters had a &quot;dead arm&quot; we had an adequate No. 5 available without a trade.      

Also, looking at the stats for the last three months, Stras (by ERA) has been our 5th best starter, and the team actually has a better pct of W/L in games started by the rest of the rotation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, that was discussed also, believe me&#8230; The problem is, what if you do that (for let&#8217;s say, mid-June to the All-Star Break) and he comes back and actually pulls a hamstring?  Then you&#8217;ve lost not one but two months of his pitching.   So yes, if you could read into the future, then you might do that, although as Rizzo says, a shutdown/rampup program is not the best program to develop him for the rigors of next season.    And in the spring, we had other problems, the back of our rotation was not stable.   Having Stras early in the season helped a lot.    </p>
<p>You could conceivably start his season two months late (also discussed, but in hindsight).   However, if you don&#8217;t make it to October, then he pitches only a 4 month season, which is not desirable for 2013.  </p>
<p>It did occur to me, however, to wonder why teams don&#8217;t stagger the starting months of their staffs, especially young staffs, bringing in a fresh arm for the second half of the season.   We did that, in essence, with Lannan in triple-A.   It wasn&#8217;t necessary (he has pitched only in two double-headers, so far) but if one of our starters had a &#8220;dead arm&#8221; we had an adequate No. 5 available without a trade.      </p>
<p>Also, looking at the stats for the last three months, Stras (by ERA) has been our 5th best starter, and the team actually has a better pct of W/L in games started by the rest of the rotation.</p>
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		<title>By: frenchy121212</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/16/leo-mazzone-calls-strasburg-shutdown-pathetic-forgets-what-happened-to-steve-avery/comment-page-1/#comment-348443</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[frenchy121212]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Aug 2012 02:21:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=191587#comment-348443</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Boras&#039; point was dumb.  He&#039;s saying a young pitcher pitching too many innings before age 23 doesn&#039;t work.  He&#039;s trying to protect a guy who was hurt before hethrew a large amount of innings.   Pitching injuires are dumb luck.   Nothing else.  For pitcher Boras names someone else could name a guy on the other side of the argument.   Boras would run out of pitchers first.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Boras&#8217; point was dumb.  He&#8217;s saying a young pitcher pitching too many innings before age 23 doesn&#8217;t work.  He&#8217;s trying to protect a guy who was hurt before hethrew a large amount of innings.   Pitching injuires are dumb luck.   Nothing else.  For pitcher Boras names someone else could name a guy on the other side of the argument.   Boras would run out of pitchers first.</p>
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		<title>By: kinggw</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/16/leo-mazzone-calls-strasburg-shutdown-pathetic-forgets-what-happened-to-steve-avery/comment-page-1/#comment-348440</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kinggw]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Aug 2012 02:14:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=191587#comment-348440</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thats a poor example. The 83 Orioles were a veteran led team. The nucleus of the Nats is relatively young. They only have two starters over 30 (Morse and LaRoche) and all of their starting rotation are 28 or younger. They ARE built for long term success. 

Whats going on with the Nats isnt magic. They are jus a bit ahead of schedule. I would share your point of view on the Nats situation if they were like the 98 Padres, but they are not. The Phillies have proven if you build it the right way you can have a 5-6 year window to compete and I think thats what the Nats are embarking on now.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thats a poor example. The 83 Orioles were a veteran led team. The nucleus of the Nats is relatively young. They only have two starters over 30 (Morse and LaRoche) and all of their starting rotation are 28 or younger. They ARE built for long term success. </p>
<p>Whats going on with the Nats isnt magic. They are jus a bit ahead of schedule. I would share your point of view on the Nats situation if they were like the 98 Padres, but they are not. The Phillies have proven if you build it the right way you can have a 5-6 year window to compete and I think thats what the Nats are embarking on now.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Fiorentino</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/16/leo-mazzone-calls-strasburg-shutdown-pathetic-forgets-what-happened-to-steve-avery/comment-page-1/#comment-348425</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Fiorentino]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Aug 2012 01:42:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=191587#comment-348425</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m curious as to what you think about what Orel Hersheiser said.  Basically he said that if Strasburg had hurt his hamstring in June, they would have shut him down for a month or more, then had him for more innings in the playoffs.  So why didn&#039;t they just shut him down anyway?  Pitchers hurt other parts of their bodies all the time and miss time and come back fine.  They could have figured out in June that they have a great shot at the playoffs and shut him down for 5 or 6 starts then.  Maybe he would have made it into the playoffs.  Like Orel said...had he hurt his hamstring or foot, they would have put him on the DL for a month or more and his innings would be lowered.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m curious as to what you think about what Orel Hersheiser said.  Basically he said that if Strasburg had hurt his hamstring in June, they would have shut him down for a month or more, then had him for more innings in the playoffs.  So why didn&#8217;t they just shut him down anyway?  Pitchers hurt other parts of their bodies all the time and miss time and come back fine.  They could have figured out in June that they have a great shot at the playoffs and shut him down for 5 or 6 starts then.  Maybe he would have made it into the playoffs.  Like Orel said&#8230;had he hurt his hamstring or foot, they would have put him on the DL for a month or more and his innings would be lowered.</p>
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		<title>By: dannythebisforbeast</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/16/leo-mazzone-calls-strasburg-shutdown-pathetic-forgets-what-happened-to-steve-avery/comment-page-1/#comment-348409</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dannythebisforbeast]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Aug 2012 00:29:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=191587#comment-348409</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Not in it to win it!!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not in it to win it!!</p>
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		<title>By: natslady</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/16/leo-mazzone-calls-strasburg-shutdown-pathetic-forgets-what-happened-to-steve-avery/comment-page-1/#comment-348364</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[natslady]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 23:08:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=191587#comment-348364</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m  confused by this.  Are you recommending that Stras pitch and not use the slider, so he pitches but doesn&#039;t pitch &lt;i&gt;effectively&lt;/i&gt;?   How does that help the Nationals&#039; cause?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m  confused by this.  Are you recommending that Stras pitch and not use the slider, so he pitches but doesn&#8217;t pitch <i>effectively</i>?   How does that help the Nationals&#8217; cause?</p>
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		<title>By: sfs1</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/16/leo-mazzone-calls-strasburg-shutdown-pathetic-forgets-what-happened-to-steve-avery/comment-page-1/#comment-348358</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[sfs1]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 22:55:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=191587#comment-348358</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[John Clay of the Lexington Herald Leader (who rarely comments on baseball outside of some occasional Reds talk, he&#039;s the UK beat writer) called him &quot;crusty Leo Mazzone.&quot;

http://www.kentucky.com/2012/08/15/2300271/john-clay-choice-is-tough-but.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John Clay of the Lexington Herald Leader (who rarely comments on baseball outside of some occasional Reds talk, he&#8217;s the UK beat writer) called him &#8220;crusty Leo Mazzone.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.kentucky.com/2012/08/15/2300271/john-clay-choice-is-tough-but.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.kentucky.com/2012/08/15/2300271/john-clay-choice-is-tough-but.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/16/leo-mazzone-calls-strasburg-shutdown-pathetic-forgets-what-happened-to-steve-avery/comment-page-1/#comment-348353</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 22:45:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=191587#comment-348353</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;I would love to see some kind of statistical analysis on this.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Two giant problems with this, so if you ever see it done you should essentially throw the results out the window.  First, there&#039;s a sample size issue.  For every Ryan, Carlton or Maddux, you can refute with a Gooden, Valenzuela and McClain.  There haven&#039;t been enough people on both sides to make any definitive statements.

The second is a causation vs correlation issue.  Since we can&#039;t definitively prove that doing X (pitch a ton of innings) or Y (pitch limits when they are young) will prevent Z (injury), how do we know which is the correct way?  Strasburg was on a strict limit, and he blew out his elbow.  CC Sabathia has made 28 or more starts every year since he was brought up in &#039;01, and he could blow his elbow out tomorrow.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I would love to see some kind of statistical analysis on this.</p></blockquote>
<p>Two giant problems with this, so if you ever see it done you should essentially throw the results out the window.  First, there&#8217;s a sample size issue.  For every Ryan, Carlton or Maddux, you can refute with a Gooden, Valenzuela and McClain.  There haven&#8217;t been enough people on both sides to make any definitive statements.</p>
<p>The second is a causation vs correlation issue.  Since we can&#8217;t definitively prove that doing X (pitch a ton of innings) or Y (pitch limits when they are young) will prevent Z (injury), how do we know which is the correct way?  Strasburg was on a strict limit, and he blew out his elbow.  CC Sabathia has made 28 or more starts every year since he was brought up in &#8217;01, and he could blow his elbow out tomorrow.</p>
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		<title>By: allzeroes</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/16/leo-mazzone-calls-strasburg-shutdown-pathetic-forgets-what-happened-to-steve-avery/comment-page-1/#comment-348350</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[allzeroes]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 22:42:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=191587#comment-348350</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[He isn&#039;t one of the all-time greats, but he was pretty good from &#039;91-&#039;93. http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/a/averyst01.shtml]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He isn&#8217;t one of the all-time greats, but he was pretty good from &#8217;91-&#8217;93. <a href="http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/a/averyst01.shtml" rel="nofollow">http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/a/averyst01.shtml</a></p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/16/leo-mazzone-calls-strasburg-shutdown-pathetic-forgets-what-happened-to-steve-avery/comment-page-1/#comment-348345</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joe]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 22:37:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=191587#comment-348345</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s interesting that there&#039;s all this talk about Steve Avery, but nobody has picked up on the fact that Mazzone also mentioned Pete Smith.  Smith was hurt and ineffective pretty much every season after he was 22.  Nats fans would hate it if Strasburg turned into Steve Avery, but they&#039;d be livid if he turned into Pete Smith. 

Smoltz had some arm troubles for awhile too, IIRC.  That might cost him the Hall of Fame.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s interesting that there&#8217;s all this talk about Steve Avery, but nobody has picked up on the fact that Mazzone also mentioned Pete Smith.  Smith was hurt and ineffective pretty much every season after he was 22.  Nats fans would hate it if Strasburg turned into Steve Avery, but they&#8217;d be livid if he turned into Pete Smith. </p>
<p>Smoltz had some arm troubles for awhile too, IIRC.  That might cost him the Hall of Fame.</p>
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		<title>By: kindasporty</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/16/leo-mazzone-calls-strasburg-shutdown-pathetic-forgets-what-happened-to-steve-avery/comment-page-1/#comment-348344</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kindasporty]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 22:34:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=191587#comment-348344</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with the first part, but as far as pitching 40 innings less, that is a good month and a half of rest.  That can certainly make a difference when it comes to injuries.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with the first part, but as far as pitching 40 innings less, that is a good month and a half of rest.  That can certainly make a difference when it comes to injuries.</p>
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		<title>By: kindasporty</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/16/leo-mazzone-calls-strasburg-shutdown-pathetic-forgets-what-happened-to-steve-avery/comment-page-1/#comment-348340</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kindasporty]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 22:32:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=191587#comment-348340</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I would love to see some kind of statistical analysis on this.  I&#039;m not sure how you&#039;d quantify it, but maybe look at major injury rates of pitchers that Leo Mazzone coached and made a certain amount of starts at a young age vs the league average of pitchers who meet the same criteria.  It seems like nobody actually has statistics on this stuff.  Everybody just gives their opinions and then goes off about how dumb everyone else is.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would love to see some kind of statistical analysis on this.  I&#8217;m not sure how you&#8217;d quantify it, but maybe look at major injury rates of pitchers that Leo Mazzone coached and made a certain amount of starts at a young age vs the league average of pitchers who meet the same criteria.  It seems like nobody actually has statistics on this stuff.  Everybody just gives their opinions and then goes off about how dumb everyone else is.</p>
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		<title>By: voteforno6</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/16/leo-mazzone-calls-strasburg-shutdown-pathetic-forgets-what-happened-to-steve-avery/comment-page-1/#comment-348316</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[voteforno6]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 21:53:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=191587#comment-348316</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What evidence do you have that pitchers are getting hurt because of the pitches that they throw? It would be very helpful if you could forward that to MLB, as I&#039;m sure that they would greatly appreciate your help. Also, you seem to imply that the Nationals have no chance of winning the World Series, once they shut down Strasburg. Don&#039;t they have any other players on the roster?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What evidence do you have that pitchers are getting hurt because of the pitches that they throw? It would be very helpful if you could forward that to MLB, as I&#8217;m sure that they would greatly appreciate your help. Also, you seem to imply that the Nationals have no chance of winning the World Series, once they shut down Strasburg. Don&#8217;t they have any other players on the roster?</p>
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		<title>By: harjack</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/16/leo-mazzone-calls-strasburg-shutdown-pathetic-forgets-what-happened-to-steve-avery/comment-page-1/#comment-348305</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[harjack]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 21:20:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=191587#comment-348305</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think it&#039;s a good thing the Braves got as much out of Avery as they could before he blew his arm out !]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it&#8217;s a good thing the Braves got as much out of Avery as they could before he blew his arm out !</p>
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		<title>By: churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/16/leo-mazzone-calls-strasburg-shutdown-pathetic-forgets-what-happened-to-steve-avery/comment-page-1/#comment-348304</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 21:19:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=191587#comment-348304</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Holy crap, here we go again.

Chamberlain, starter in college, starter in the minors.  He was approaching his innings limit AND the Yanks had a desperate need for a bullpen arm.  So they brought him up in the bullpen.  The restrictions placed on him by Brian Cashman were due to Joe Torre&#039;s terrible bullpen management (mainly) and an attempt to keep his innings down (minutely).  This was &#039;07.

In &#039;08, they started him off in the bullpen, but the goal was always to get him back as a starter.  He actually was performing very well through 11 starts (1 abbreviated as he had to get his pitch limit up), 60IP thru 11, 2.23 ERA with a 69/23 K/BB ratio, then he hurt his shoulder.  He finished off the rest of the season in the bullpen.

In &#039;09 he was a starter the entire year, and did very well for a young pitcher until he hit his innings high.  Note, through 110 innings pitched, he had a 3.58 ERA, with a 97/50 K/BB ratio.  He ended the year with a mid 4s, but still good for a 23 year old in the AL E.

However, he was sand bagged in the &quot;competition&quot; between him and Hughes (even though their numbers were almost identical through the same amount of starts).  The Yanks are convinced his shoulder won&#039;t hold up, which is why he&#039;s a reliever.

So please, stop bringing up this crap about the Yanks screwing him up, making him a starter, etc...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Holy crap, here we go again.</p>
<p>Chamberlain, starter in college, starter in the minors.  He was approaching his innings limit AND the Yanks had a desperate need for a bullpen arm.  So they brought him up in the bullpen.  The restrictions placed on him by Brian Cashman were due to Joe Torre&#8217;s terrible bullpen management (mainly) and an attempt to keep his innings down (minutely).  This was &#8217;07.</p>
<p>In &#8217;08, they started him off in the bullpen, but the goal was always to get him back as a starter.  He actually was performing very well through 11 starts (1 abbreviated as he had to get his pitch limit up), 60IP thru 11, 2.23 ERA with a 69/23 K/BB ratio, then he hurt his shoulder.  He finished off the rest of the season in the bullpen.</p>
<p>In &#8217;09 he was a starter the entire year, and did very well for a young pitcher until he hit his innings high.  Note, through 110 innings pitched, he had a 3.58 ERA, with a 97/50 K/BB ratio.  He ended the year with a mid 4s, but still good for a 23 year old in the AL E.</p>
<p>However, he was sand bagged in the &#8220;competition&#8221; between him and Hughes (even though their numbers were almost identical through the same amount of starts).  The Yanks are convinced his shoulder won&#8217;t hold up, which is why he&#8217;s a reliever.</p>
<p>So please, stop bringing up this crap about the Yanks screwing him up, making him a starter, etc&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: giselleisasucubus</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/16/leo-mazzone-calls-strasburg-shutdown-pathetic-forgets-what-happened-to-steve-avery/comment-page-1/#comment-348293</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[giselleisasucubus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 21:05:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=191587#comment-348293</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No, it is actually documented that Mazzone had starters throw on off days. They pitched, took a day, threw days 2 &amp; 3, rested day 4 and then took their start. Avery was the only one who go hurt. 

I am sure they got in plenty of golf on days 2 and 4 though :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, it is actually documented that Mazzone had starters throw on off days. They pitched, took a day, threw days 2 &amp; 3, rested day 4 and then took their start. Avery was the only one who go hurt. </p>
<p>I am sure they got in plenty of golf on days 2 and 4 though <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: heelbostonfan</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/16/leo-mazzone-calls-strasburg-shutdown-pathetic-forgets-what-happened-to-steve-avery/comment-page-1/#comment-348292</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[heelbostonfan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 21:03:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=191587#comment-348292</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s a total disgrace what the Nats are doing. They are literally passing up a chance to win the World Series. They are more or less telling Strasburg, &quot;Hey thanks for your contributions to a potential World Series team. We know we wouldn&#039;t be here without you given that you could be a Cy Young candidate and all, but thanks for nothing.&quot; Serious question: Is Pete Rose calling the shots for the Nats? 

This is not Little League. This is not the bush leagues. This a pennant race in the BIG leagues. 

Guys aren&#039;t getting hurt because of their workloads. It mostly has to do with what pitches these guys are throwing. The splitter was originally intended to be an easy-grip changeup. Instead, guys are jamming the ball as far as they can in between their fingers which puts huge stress on the elbow. They put further stress on their elbows by throwing sliders that start way inside and end up outside. Jeez Kerry Wood had a slider that almost started behind hitters and broke way outside. In related news, Wood was never healthy after his 20 K game. 

Strasburg throws a big slider. Limiting his innings doesn&#039;t change the fact that it&#039;s his pitches and not his workload that led to his Tommy John surgery. Maybe you limit his innings down the stretch so that he&#039;s fresh for the playoffs. If I&#039;m Strasburg, I&#039;m counting down the days to when I can leave skid marks on my way out of town.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a total disgrace what the Nats are doing. They are literally passing up a chance to win the World Series. They are more or less telling Strasburg, &#8220;Hey thanks for your contributions to a potential World Series team. We know we wouldn&#8217;t be here without you given that you could be a Cy Young candidate and all, but thanks for nothing.&#8221; Serious question: Is Pete Rose calling the shots for the Nats? </p>
<p>This is not Little League. This is not the bush leagues. This a pennant race in the BIG leagues. </p>
<p>Guys aren&#8217;t getting hurt because of their workloads. It mostly has to do with what pitches these guys are throwing. The splitter was originally intended to be an easy-grip changeup. Instead, guys are jamming the ball as far as they can in between their fingers which puts huge stress on the elbow. They put further stress on their elbows by throwing sliders that start way inside and end up outside. Jeez Kerry Wood had a slider that almost started behind hitters and broke way outside. In related news, Wood was never healthy after his 20 K game. </p>
<p>Strasburg throws a big slider. Limiting his innings doesn&#8217;t change the fact that it&#8217;s his pitches and not his workload that led to his Tommy John surgery. Maybe you limit his innings down the stretch so that he&#8217;s fresh for the playoffs. If I&#8217;m Strasburg, I&#8217;m counting down the days to when I can leave skid marks on my way out of town.</p>
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		<title>By: yahmule</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/16/leo-mazzone-calls-strasburg-shutdown-pathetic-forgets-what-happened-to-steve-avery/comment-page-1/#comment-348290</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[yahmule]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:57:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=191587#comment-348290</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Natlady, as I remember it, the Yankees decided to start the year with Joba in the bullpen - but he was forbidden to pitch consecutive days - then they were going to move him into the rotation. He wasn&#039;t really on board with that and fan and media pressure caused them to move him into the rotation early in the season, but they waited just long enough that he really wasn&#039;t properly stretched out for starting. He had an inning limit, but wasn&#039;t efficient enough to pitch deep into games anyway. Then they really got weird with it. They announced they would skip him in the rotation periodically and even started pulling him during the third inning of some starts. As it turned out, not even the Yankees had a good handle on what they meant by the Joba Rules.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Natlady, as I remember it, the Yankees decided to start the year with Joba in the bullpen &#8211; but he was forbidden to pitch consecutive days &#8211; then they were going to move him into the rotation. He wasn&#8217;t really on board with that and fan and media pressure caused them to move him into the rotation early in the season, but they waited just long enough that he really wasn&#8217;t properly stretched out for starting. He had an inning limit, but wasn&#8217;t efficient enough to pitch deep into games anyway. Then they really got weird with it. They announced they would skip him in the rotation periodically and even started pulling him during the third inning of some starts. As it turned out, not even the Yankees had a good handle on what they meant by the Joba Rules.</p>
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		<title>By: skids003</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/16/leo-mazzone-calls-strasburg-shutdown-pathetic-forgets-what-happened-to-steve-avery/comment-page-1/#comment-348289</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[skids003]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:57:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=191587#comment-348289</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[willclark, I agree.  I think Mazzone&#039;s credentials are a little better than Craig&#039;s.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>willclark, I agree.  I think Mazzone&#8217;s credentials are a little better than Craig&#8217;s.</p>
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		<title>By: cratsbats</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/16/leo-mazzone-calls-strasburg-shutdown-pathetic-forgets-what-happened-to-steve-avery/comment-page-1/#comment-348281</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cratsbats]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:45:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=191587#comment-348281</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wow, 5 games over .500.  I&#039;m quivering from fear.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, 5 games over .500.  I&#8217;m quivering from fear.</p>
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		<title>By: madhatternalice</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/16/leo-mazzone-calls-strasburg-shutdown-pathetic-forgets-what-happened-to-steve-avery/comment-page-1/#comment-348271</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[madhatternalice]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:29:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=191587#comment-348271</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And another Phillies threadjack. Honestly, can we go with one NL East story that doesn&#039;t have some Phillies homer try and take over the comments?

Sure, you&#039;d like the Nats to pitch Stras for the rest of the season: that way, he blows his elbow out and doesn&#039;t continue to terrorize Phillies hitting for the next decade.

Sorry, pal. Not buying the Kool-Aid you&#039;re selling.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And another Phillies threadjack. Honestly, can we go with one NL East story that doesn&#8217;t have some Phillies homer try and take over the comments?</p>
<p>Sure, you&#8217;d like the Nats to pitch Stras for the rest of the season: that way, he blows his elbow out and doesn&#8217;t continue to terrorize Phillies hitting for the next decade.</p>
<p>Sorry, pal. Not buying the Kool-Aid you&#8217;re selling.</p>
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		<title>By: recoveringcubsfan</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/16/leo-mazzone-calls-strasburg-shutdown-pathetic-forgets-what-happened-to-steve-avery/comment-page-1/#comment-348260</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[recoveringcubsfan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:13:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=191587#comment-348260</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Also, vcupats: lineup.  Lombardozzi, Harper, Zimmerman, LaRoche, Morse, Espinosa, Werth, Suzuki.  Pretty big reason they could conceivably beat anybody this postseason.  The middle of the order is as good as any going right now.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, vcupats: lineup.  Lombardozzi, Harper, Zimmerman, LaRoche, Morse, Espinosa, Werth, Suzuki.  Pretty big reason they could conceivably beat anybody this postseason.  The middle of the order is as good as any going right now.</p>
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		<title>By: recoveringcubsfan</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/16/leo-mazzone-calls-strasburg-shutdown-pathetic-forgets-what-happened-to-steve-avery/comment-page-1/#comment-348259</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[recoveringcubsfan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:10:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=191587#comment-348259</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Florida is a mess, my man, so nobody can say what they will do next year.  Isn&#039;t JJ due for more surgeries?  Can Reyes hit in all 9 spots?  Logan Morrison is getting a full leg transplant this time, I hear.  I feel for you Phillies Phreaks, because your team is busted and old, so you have only memories now.  I&#039;m not trying to be mean, but you should really go look at your roster and then tell DC who you have that&#039;s younger or better than the Nats player at a given position.  Ruiz, if he was healthy.  But that&#039;s about it.

But I digress - nobody has said it yet, but the real crux of the Mazzone issue is: was he oscillating like an unheld orphan the whole time, or what?  I can&#039;t believe the Orioles let him go before he fixed their pitching staff. He was going to be their savior or something.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Florida is a mess, my man, so nobody can say what they will do next year.  Isn&#8217;t JJ due for more surgeries?  Can Reyes hit in all 9 spots?  Logan Morrison is getting a full leg transplant this time, I hear.  I feel for you Phillies Phreaks, because your team is busted and old, so you have only memories now.  I&#8217;m not trying to be mean, but you should really go look at your roster and then tell DC who you have that&#8217;s younger or better than the Nats player at a given position.  Ruiz, if he was healthy.  But that&#8217;s about it.</p>
<p>But I digress &#8211; nobody has said it yet, but the real crux of the Mazzone issue is: was he oscillating like an unheld orphan the whole time, or what?  I can&#8217;t believe the Orioles let him go before he fixed their pitching staff. He was going to be their savior or something.</p>
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		<title>By: vcupats</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/16/leo-mazzone-calls-strasburg-shutdown-pathetic-forgets-what-happened-to-steve-avery/comment-page-1/#comment-348253</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[vcupats]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:06:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=191587#comment-348253</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This won&#039;t hurt the Nats as much as everyone thinks.  We have the best staff in baseball.  So instead of using a 4-man playoff rotation of starters 1-4, we&#039;re using starters 2-5.  Ever since Detwiler (#5) regained his form we have had no weak links in the rotation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This won&#8217;t hurt the Nats as much as everyone thinks.  We have the best staff in baseball.  So instead of using a 4-man playoff rotation of starters 1-4, we&#8217;re using starters 2-5.  Ever since Detwiler (#5) regained his form we have had no weak links in the rotation.</p>
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		<title>By: drummerdave20</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/16/leo-mazzone-calls-strasburg-shutdown-pathetic-forgets-what-happened-to-steve-avery/comment-page-1/#comment-348234</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[drummerdave20]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 19:50:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=191587#comment-348234</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[you&#039;re fucking stupid. you have a chance to parade this season. I&#039;m a die hard phillies fan. and I&#039;m saying this. pitch the kid. we would never shut down hamels or Halladay or anyone in the playoffs. window of opportunity is small because remember, the phillies WILL be back next season after acquiring a big name outfielder and 3rd baseman. we lost hunter pence joe Blanton and victorino and we re like 5 games over .500 since the trade deadline. that just shows how deadly we are with Howard and utley back. imagine if we had the other pieces and Howard and utley all season long. not to mention chooch is hurt. like I said. we ll be there next season. and I&#039;m sure Florida will too. so pitch the kid n will now!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>you&#8217;re fucking stupid. you have a chance to parade this season. I&#8217;m a die hard phillies fan. and I&#8217;m saying this. pitch the kid. we would never shut down hamels or Halladay or anyone in the playoffs. window of opportunity is small because remember, the phillies WILL be back next season after acquiring a big name outfielder and 3rd baseman. we lost hunter pence joe Blanton and victorino and we re like 5 games over .500 since the trade deadline. that just shows how deadly we are with Howard and utley back. imagine if we had the other pieces and Howard and utley all season long. not to mention chooch is hurt. like I said. we ll be there next season. and I&#8217;m sure Florida will too. so pitch the kid n will now!</p>
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		<title>By: bigleagues</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/16/leo-mazzone-calls-strasburg-shutdown-pathetic-forgets-what-happened-to-steve-avery/comment-page-1/#comment-348232</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bigleagues]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 19:49:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=191587#comment-348232</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hmmmm . . . why am I skeptical on the notion that it&#039;s Mike Rizzo actually driving the Strasburg Innings limit . . . hmmmm . . . ahhhh, yes! This is why . . .

http://www.natsinsider.com/2012/08/boras-refutes-mazzone-on-strasburg-avery.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmmm . . . why am I skeptical on the notion that it&#8217;s Mike Rizzo actually driving the Strasburg Innings limit . . . hmmmm . . . ahhhh, yes! This is why . . .</p>
<p><a href="http://www.natsinsider.com/2012/08/boras-refutes-mazzone-on-strasburg-avery.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.natsinsider.com/2012/08/boras-refutes-mazzone-on-strasburg-avery.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: wethog66</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/16/leo-mazzone-calls-strasburg-shutdown-pathetic-forgets-what-happened-to-steve-avery/comment-page-1/#comment-348222</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[wethog66]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 19:40:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=191587#comment-348222</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Also, Mazzone was on Mike and Mike yesterday morning shilling out his &quot;Pathetic&quot; comments as well.  Guess he is making the rounds to whomever will listen.  Maybe he has an ulterior motive?  lol]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, Mazzone was on Mike and Mike yesterday morning shilling out his &#8220;Pathetic&#8221; comments as well.  Guess he is making the rounds to whomever will listen.  Maybe he has an ulterior motive?  lol</p>
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		<title>By: kkolchak</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/16/leo-mazzone-calls-strasburg-shutdown-pathetic-forgets-what-happened-to-steve-avery/comment-page-1/#comment-348220</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kkolchak]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 19:39:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=191587#comment-348220</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Which, by implication, means that there is in fact a sound basis for limiting Strasburg&#039;s innings.  Why don&#039;t they let 21-year olds throw 215+ innings any more?  Why do they have pitch counts these days?  Why aren&#039;t even older pitchers allowed to throw 250+ innings anymore?  Why doesn&#039;t any team use a four man rotation when most fifth starters suck?

The Nats are just taking the next logical step in what has been a slow evolutionary process.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Which, by implication, means that there is in fact a sound basis for limiting Strasburg&#8217;s innings.  Why don&#8217;t they let 21-year olds throw 215+ innings any more?  Why do they have pitch counts these days?  Why aren&#8217;t even older pitchers allowed to throw 250+ innings anymore?  Why doesn&#8217;t any team use a four man rotation when most fifth starters suck?</p>
<p>The Nats are just taking the next logical step in what has been a slow evolutionary process.</p>
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