Comments on: Hopefully Cliff Lee realizes wins are a dumb stat for pitchers

By: thefalcon123

thefalcon123 — Thu, 04 Oct 2012 14:04:34 +0000

Uh huh. And what percentage of wins are 1 and 2 hitters “bigdog”? 2%? 3%?.

So, new deal. I will happily grant a pitcher a win every time he throws a one hitter or two hitter. I guess that means Felix Hernandez lead the league in wins this year with 3.

By: bigdogpappad

bigdogpappad — Thu, 04 Oct 2012 00:44:05 +0000

Sure that’s right, 2-hitters, 1-hitters, no hitters and perfect games are really won by the guys scoring runs, how silly of me to overlook the pitcher had nothing to do with the ‘NOTPLGWLA5IALWTLBTB’

By: bigdogpappad

bigdogpappad — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 23:44:03 +0000

Yeah “Loser” is a bit strong but you did a really nice 5th grade lookup of the word for all of us here, but why did you stop there? “dumb stat” – what does that mean Einstein?(you and Gleeman included) should look that up as well. Last time I checked WINS were part of the Pitching Triple Crown but since Lee mde a bad decision to join the Phillies what is the real issue here with Lee? He’s just STUPID!

By: deathmonkey41

deathmonkey41 — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 23:28:05 +0000

Couldn’t have happened to a bigger, gum-chewing doosh.

By: delawarephilliesfan

delawarephilliesfan — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 23:02:04 +0000

Well…..call me delusional, but I am still hoping the Phils win (see Danny Ozark comment re:1975)

I am rooting for the Braves. And the way this season has gone, that is probably the kiss of death for them

By: churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged

churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 22:22:17 +0000

For instance, Ivan Nova has 12 “wins” with a 5.02 ERA in 170 innings and Bruce Chen has 11 “wins” with a 5.07 ERA in 192 innings.

A bit late to the party, but how about Clay Buccholz for the anti-Cliff Lee? 4 wins giving up 5 runs or more. 11 total wins, and only 5 of them did he give up less than 3 runs.

By: philliesblow

philliesblow — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 22:00:44 +0000

So Lee only wins 6 games due to lack of run support, but yet I’ve seen a ton of posts lately saying RBI’s (or RsBI if you prefer) are a meaningless stat. I’m sure Cliff would have liked a few Phillies hitters to have more meaningless stats in his starts.

By: bougin89

bougin89 — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 21:53:46 +0000

This guy can’t win at all. I think he’s finished. The Phillies should probably just eat half his contract and trade him to the Brewers for any prospect they can get.

-Brewers Fan

By: El Bravo

El Bravo — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 21:17:44 +0000

hhahaha, I didn’t even see this when I posted. Don’t worry, when I troll, I probably shouldn’t be helped. Something about feeding trolls and such….

By: El Bravo

El Bravo — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 21:15:51 +0000

Hahaha, delawarephilliesfan knows me well. Cheers, sir. So who do the Phils’ Phaithful root for now? Nats? Braves? Cards? Giants? Anyone other than an NL team?

By: indaburg

indaburg — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 21:13:41 +0000

Si, muy caliente hoy.

By: delawarephilliesfan

delawarephilliesfan — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 20:46:42 +0000

Right, and that is what Aaron used it for, illustrating an unsually high amount of times he failed to get a win when picthing well enough to give his team a chance to win.

By: paperlions

paperlions — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 20:35:46 +0000

Actually, that is the worst you can pitch and qualify for a quality start….you can pitch better and it’ll still be a quality start. That is the problem of perception for people that decry the QS definition…the thing measures how many times a pitcher gave his team a chance to win by pitching reasonably deep into the game and not giving up a ton of runs….that’s all it is for.

By: stlouis1baseball

stlouis1baseball — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 20:29:41 +0000

“phinishes.”
I see what you did there Kolchak!

By: stlouis1baseball

stlouis1baseball — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 20:28:23 +0000

Absolutely. Though as a Cardinals fan…I prefer to call it “Carpenters Last Three Game’s Syndrome.”

By: kkolchak

kkolchak — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 20:27:02 +0000

My definition of a loser? A team that phinishes 17 games out of first place.

By: Gamera the Brave

Gamera the Brave — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 20:25:07 +0000

They call this lack-of-run-support phenomenon “Matt Cain’s Syndrome”…

By: delawarephilliesfan

delawarephilliesfan — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 20:25:03 +0000

“Come on Bravo!
I was actually attempting to help you!”

Well, then that was your mistake

By: cur68

cur68 — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 20:23:25 +0000

You en fuego today FC.

By: delawarephilliesfan

delawarephilliesfan — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 20:22:55 +0000

@ kk – El Bravo is a troll, just mixing it up and giving him what he wants. I could care less if that bothers you

@ El Troll – see above

By: The Dangerous Mabry

The Dangerous Mabry — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 20:21:42 +0000

It’s also the WORST possible quality start. While there are a lot of problems with the save, we don’t assume that every save was a situation where a guy gave up two runs and loaded the bases before finally getting a lucky double play to end the game. Similarly, most quality starts aren’t 3 runs in 6 innings, but that’s the minimum criteria.

From an ancient Rob Neyer article about the Quality Start:

Have the pitchers credited with a quality start generally pitched well? Here are the ERAs for all quality starts and non-quality starts in both seasons:

ERA

Quality non-Quality

1985 1.88 7.37

2005 2.04 7.70

By: stlouis1baseball

stlouis1baseball — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 20:18:25 +0000

“5. a person that looks up the definition to the word “loser”
Come on Bravo!
I was actually attempting to help you!
And please know I did so prior to seeing “Johnny Thin Skin’s” response.

By: kkolchak

kkolchak — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 20:17:40 +0000

Sorry, Cliff, but chicks dig 20-game winners. Just ask Gio.

By: stlouis1baseball

stlouis1baseball — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 20:16:58 +0000

noun
1. a PERSON, TEAM, nation, etc., that loses:
The visiting team or (PITCHER) was the loser in the series.

2. Informal .
a. a person who has been convicted of a misdemeanor or, especially, a felony: a two-time loser.

b. a person who has failed at a particular activity: a loser at marriage. a loser at BASEBALL.

c. someone or something that is marked by consistently or thoroughly bad quality, performance, etc.:
Don’t bother to see that film, it’s a real loser.
Don’t bother to watch that PITCHER, he’s a real loser.

3. Slang . a misfit, especially someone who has never or seldom been successful at a job, personal relationship, etc.
You know…like a PITCHER.

By: fmlizard

fmlizard — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 20:16:47 +0000

My fantasy league did Win % this year instead of Wins. Next year, I’m dumping Wins or any related stat entirely from the scoring. And yes, I had Lee on my team this year.

By: Jeremy T

Jeremy T — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 20:15:52 +0000

Having a 4.5 ERA over a long period of time would mean that pitcher is averaging 3 runs per 6 innings. It’s bad because of all the times that the pitcher let up more than that. 6 innings and 3 runs is called a quality start because, most of the time, that’s right around the cutoff of where you need to be to keep your team in the game. You’re right that it doesn’t account for the run environment, though.

By: thefalcon123

thefalcon123 — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 20:15:13 +0000

…and Storm Davis once went 19-7 with an 85 ERA+ in 169 innings.

One win away from 20 wins in an absolutely awful season of pitching.

I guess Storm Davis just knew how to win and Nolan Ryan didn’t, right guys?

By: El Bravo

El Bravo — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 20:14:55 +0000

5. a person that looks up the definition to the word “loser”

By: Francisco (FC)

Francisco (FC) — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 20:14:15 +0000

Mind you I fully believe Cliff pitched well, it’s just that there does seem to be a disparity between the QS definition and what we generally consider good starter ERA.

By: kkolchak

kkolchak — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 20:13:17 +0000

Wow–touchy. Enjoy the offseason, loser.