Comments on: Umpires stand by Sam Holbrook’s infield-fly rule call

By: tekneek211

tekneek211 — Tue, 09 Oct 2012 13:23:55 +0000

The rules do not require anyone to be camped under anything. Holbrook watching Kozma and waiting for that moment reveals his improper application of the rules. If you review both the infield fly rule and the ordinary effort definition in the rules, you will see what I am talking about.

We can debate whether or not it should still be an infield fly call after that, but it will be clear that Holbrook did not properly apply the rules to this situation.

By: tekneek211

tekneek211 — Tue, 09 Oct 2012 13:22:00 +0000

I wonder if any umpires in the league have ever read the definition of “ordinary effort” included in the MLB rules. If they have, I wonder if they would then be able to articulate why Holbrook watching Kozma had anything to do with his call, since the rules (as written) specifically require that the decision be made with an objective standard. Given Holbrook’s statements, he did not properly apply the “ordinary effort” standard, which is defined in the rules and specifically called for in the “infield fly” rule.

By: andrewproughcfe

andrewproughcfe — Sat, 06 Oct 2012 20:12:26 +0000

Well – what can you expect from replacement Umps from the Lingerie Baseball League.

I mean we ALL know that real umps would never botch a call that bad…

By: proudlycanadian

proudlycanadian — Sat, 06 Oct 2012 19:06:35 +0000

Thank you for banning that person. The comment was totally offensive.

By: aroomadazda

aroomadazda — Sat, 06 Oct 2012 17:40:47 +0000

Oops, I meant ceases to become an infield fly. For a really good explanation, watch the Harold Reynolds clip.

By: aroomadazda

aroomadazda — Sat, 06 Oct 2012 17:37:15 +0000

I am a Giants fan, so I do not care at all who won. The call made by the ump was exactly the correct call. The infielder was camped under it with his arms out. It doesn’t matter how far into the outfield he was. There is not exact distance at which it ceases to become an outfield fly. The real reason the Braves lost was the errors.

By: mattcerrone

mattcerrone — Sat, 06 Oct 2012 17:28:19 +0000

Can someone tell me why the player is not required to catch the ball once an infield fly rule is called? Shouldn’t the fielder STILL be required to catch the ball?

By: santolonius

santolonius — Sat, 06 Oct 2012 17:15:26 +0000

so basically on a tricky pop-up that was between players in a noisy stadium the umpire decided to step in and catch the ball for the player. if the old guard at mlb thinks that’s okay, then there is no reason for me to watch baseball again. at least not until selig, torre and the rest of these stubborn old men die off and get replaced by someone with some common sense.

By: halfthemoney

halfthemoney — Sat, 06 Oct 2012 16:53:38 +0000

I Would call this the correct execution in the wrong situation. And maybe the rule book should be updated to address post season addition of outfield umpires, specifically that an infield umpire makes the call. That would alleviate all the issues with the depth of the SS.

By: planck16

planck16 — Sat, 06 Oct 2012 15:54:33 +0000

You can’t call an infield fly when the ball hits the ground. What jarhead umpires forget is that once infield fly is called, runners advance at their own risk. By calling it when it is on the ground or close to the ground, then you have officially given the defense an advantage in turning a double play. Nobody on the field of play heard the call, including the OF and SS. When you are looking for help like their SS, that is not ordinary effort.

By: planck16

planck16 — Sat, 06 Oct 2012 15:46:07 +0000

What you are not mentioning is the intent of the rule. It is to prevent bogus double plays. Sid Bream could have hit the ball, been on second and first and a double play would not have happened. If the call would have been made at the appropriate time, then there would be less noise. But the fact that he called it so late and so deep is ridiculous. He should be removed from all playoff games.

By: nuebby

nuebby — Sat, 06 Oct 2012 15:38:08 +0000

As an umpire that went to pro school. The way they teach this rule is that if an infielder can get to the ball with ordinary effort the umpire should call the rule. It doesn’t matter if the umpire calls it after the ball hits the ground (ideally it would be at the apex but can’t always happen). So even though the infielder was in the outfield and the umpire called it late the only part you can question is your opinion of ordinary effort. Good luck with that…

By: 18thstreet

18thstreet — Sat, 06 Oct 2012 15:31:11 +0000

“Nothing is worse than the players union.”

Well, that and human trafficking. I’m sorry — did I go off topic? That was rude of me.

By: 18thstreet

18thstreet — Sat, 06 Oct 2012 15:29:38 +0000

Sure, but does anyone believe that fans in any city would behave differently? If you think so (and I’m not talking to you, Koufax), you’ve deluding yourself.

Fans are assholes.

By: 18thstreet

18thstreet — Sat, 06 Oct 2012 15:27:33 +0000

Kozma was still moving — albeit slowly — at the moment it was called. That’s what ticks me off. Well, it’s on the list.

By: jdd428

jdd428 — Sat, 06 Oct 2012 15:26:11 +0000

Even after the call, the Braves had a chance. Motte comes in and shows no control; he walks McCann and went 3-1 on Bourn.

So what does Bourn do? Instead of taking the fifth pitch and forcing Motte to put the next one in the zone or walk in a run, the SPEEDSTER (Lou Brown: “Every time you hit one in the air you owe me 20 push-ups.”) tries to swing for the fences to give Atlanta the lead. Of course he misses and then strikes out to end the threat.

TAKE THE PITCH. Sure, maybe it’s a called strike and maybe the Braves still get nothing. But all the pressure is on Motte there. If you get the call and draw the walk, momentum is solidly in the Braves’ favor with the lead down to two runs and the bases still loaded.

By: 18thstreet

18thstreet — Sat, 06 Oct 2012 15:25:30 +0000

The purpose of the one-game wild card is to give an advantage to the division winners. Both Baltimore and St. Louis enter their series at a disadvantage, having started one of their best pitchers. Meanwhile, the opponents are well rested.

I’m fine with it. It’s made winning the division a valuable prize. The crapshoot nature of the NL game, I think, is going to distract people from the purpose of the extra wild card.

I think it’s improved the regular season — not because more teams have a shot in October (that’s a downside for me, but a plus for the people selling tickets), but because the best teams can’t start coasting too early.

By: surefooted1

surefooted1 — Sat, 06 Oct 2012 15:17:07 +0000

There is a saying in sports that applies from peewee to the pros.

“If you allow the game to be decided by the refs/umps…”

By: jdd428

jdd428 — Sat, 06 Oct 2012 15:09:54 +0000

Check the replay again. The ball had long passed its peak when Holbrook made the call. His arm went up immediately before Kozma peeled off, less than a second before the ball hit the ground. It was no more than 25 feet in the air when the call was made and that’s not anywhere close to its peak.

By: johngaltwho

johngaltwho — Sat, 06 Oct 2012 14:56:52 +0000

It was a bad call, objectively. The infield fly rule is actually in place to protect the hitting team against trickery by the defense wherein a ball could be intentionally dropped and used to make a double play. Therefore, it should only be invoked when there is no doubt that the fielder is in a position to make an ordinary routine play. In this case, the inappropriate application of the infield fly rule, a rule designed specifically to protect the hitting team, was used in such a way as to erase a defensive error, hurt the offense, disrupt the game, and produce a tainted result. Despite good intentions, the umps screwed up and MLB looks foolish in their post hoc support.

By: lncrprl

lncrprl — Sat, 06 Oct 2012 14:11:21 +0000

What I don’t understand is the 5 negative (thumbs down) votes for your blog! Even a DIEHARD Cards Fan should understand what a HORRIBLE call that was!

By: lncrprl

lncrprl — Sat, 06 Oct 2012 14:05:06 +0000

You mean to say, those 3 throwing errors had nothing to do with the LOSS?

By: thefalcon123

thefalcon123 — Sat, 06 Oct 2012 14:00:25 +0000

So, there is a good chance the Braves would have scored some runs and still been losing? That’s what you’re saying. *The Braves odds are winning were still pretty long!*

Using Hardballtimes Win Probability calculator, that call changed the odds of the Braves winning from 18% to 6%. Those are still really, really, long odds.

By: dasher521

dasher521 — Sat, 06 Oct 2012 13:53:46 +0000

The first question that I have is if there is any written procedures of the responsibility of the left field and right field umpires stationed on the foul line? Is their role and responsibility only to call fair or foul balls (replay takes care of foul pole / home run calls). It seems to me the umpire crews are in 162 games under one set of rules & responsibilities and it changes for playoffs. Adding umpires just seems to create uncertainty of the roles and responsibilities.
As to the call, I think if an infielder has to turn his back to the infield to make a play, it isn’t ordinary effort. If an infield back peddles to get the ball, that is ordinary effort. Whether the infield fly is called or not by the umpires, the infielder will still try to catch the ball. The call tells the infielder not to drop the ball because nothing will come of it. In the press conference after, Torre basically says that they are ignoring the protest rule (24 four hours). The objective should be to get it right. I don’t think they a) got it right, b) attempted to get it right.

By: doughboy73

doughboy73 — Sat, 06 Oct 2012 13:49:29 +0000

One point that supports the call is that when the shortstop peeled off he moved forward. He got to the spot, thought he was being called off and broke back towards the infield. Once it became apparent that he was conceding to the outfielder the call becomes questionable because it appears as though the infielder is admitting it was not routine enough for him to call the outfielder off but by that time the call was already made. That call us NEVER an immediate call as someone stated earlier because the path and actions of the fielder do apply. A ball that could clearly be an infield fly will not be called in the fielder falls or appears to not see the ball(sun or lights blinding him). There is also a provision that allows the umps to fix a call after the play ended if they feel it should have been an infield fly

By: pens5829

pens5829 — Sat, 06 Oct 2012 13:31:08 +0000

You need to get a life.

By: koufaxmitzvah

koufaxmitzvah — Sat, 06 Oct 2012 13:20:08 +0000

I don’t think it helped having a stop of play due to a fan riot, either.

By: istallion

istallion — Sat, 06 Oct 2012 12:43:18 +0000

Most of these umpires who agree probably have an IQ of less than 100. So, I’m not surprised to hear they agree.
Secondly, they stick together.
Any reasonable sane person can see that was not ORDINARYand the proof was right before you- the SS bailed out. He even admitted all he could hear was the crowd. He bailed because he thought LF was going to take it.
Like I said- only morons and biased people believe this was the right call.

By: FinFan68

FinFan68 — Sat, 06 Oct 2012 12:39:13 +0000

That was a HORRIBLE call and MLB standing behind it was an injustice. The player(s) were not camped under a routine ball, the ball was too far into the outfield (even though that isn’t a factor in the rule) and the ump waited until the ball was ~25 feet from the ground (on a ball that was easily over 150 feet high at its apex. The call was in no way ” immediate” as required in the rule. The embarrassing aftermath of fans throwing debris was an opportunity for MLB to correct the call. Torre was on site and took the easy way out. That’s disgraceful. The call itself is a judgment call (you have to be pretty liberal with the interpretation to agree with the call) but the incorrect execution of the call was not. Torre should have intervened. The play may or may not have eliminated the braves from the tourney but there will now always be resentment and uncertainty. The cards were placed in a much easier situation and the braves momentum was lost. The game should be decided by the players on the field rather than bogus calls by the umpires.

By: planck16

planck16 — Sat, 06 Oct 2012 11:41:43 +0000

A couple of things here:

1) Guess nobody will ever say the Atlanta fans are not passionate!
2) MLB needs to come out and say that it was a bad call. They look dumb supporting the decision.
3) Holbrook should be removed from the playoff roster.
4) The Sam Wyche “you don’t live in Cleveland” speech should have been given by Chipper, Hank Aaron, Dale Murphy, or Jimmy Carter.
5) it is heartbreaking being an Atlanta fan, but the 3 errors and not getting more than one run in those last three innings is a gut punch.
6) Holbrook should mix in a salad.