Comments on: Inducting Jack Morris would lower the bar for the Hall of Fame http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/04/jack-morris-would-lower-the-bar-for-the-hall-of-fame/ Baseball. Baseball. And then a bit more baseball. Mon, 20 May 2013 04:51:13 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.com/ By: rayfeathers http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/04/jack-morris-would-lower-the-bar-for-the-hall-of-fame/comment-page-2/#comment-409910 Sat, 08 Dec 2012 16:27:23 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=269251#comment-409910 way too many “good” pitchers are getting in. the hall is for the elite. if you have to debate it, than he doesn’ t belong. same with blylevin.

]]> By: a1legalservices http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/04/jack-morris-would-lower-the-bar-for-the-hall-of-fame/comment-page-2/#comment-409232 Fri, 07 Dec 2012 05:16:05 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=269251#comment-409232 I dont think Schilling is any more qualified for the Hall of Fame than Morris. Post season success alone doesnt make you a HOFer.

]]> By: reddwarf66622 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/04/jack-morris-would-lower-the-bar-for-the-hall-of-fame/comment-page-2/#comment-408722 Thu, 06 Dec 2012 14:29:11 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=269251#comment-408722 Morris’s accomplishments make him a Hall of Famer. You failed to mention he has 4 World Series rings. Failed to mention he holds the record for winning the most World Series with three different teams. Failed to mention 14 consecutive opening day starts usually saved for the best pitcher on the team. If you ask his managers and other managers who watched him they all said they feared him and what made him go is that he could complete games. The managers said the bullpen would see this and he would make the other pitchers try harder. Why is Morris not in the Hall of Fame? He did not like doing interviews so press members held that against him. Morris played for small market teams voters are not as nice to players that played on a small market teams for some reason. Voters have been hard on starting pitchers getting into the Hall of Fame recent years it was a 12 year gap between Nolan Ryan and Bert Blyleven being voted in. Voters have magic numbers they want pitchers to hit 300 wins and 3,000 or more strike outs. Lets face it I don’t see 300 wins coming from any pitcher in the modern era One thing I guarantee you if he won a World Series with the Chicago Cubs, Boston Red Sox, and lets say Chicago White Sox he would of been voted in a long time ago. He certainly belongs inside the Hall of Fame more than a pitcher like Red Ruffing the worst pitcher in voted to Hall of Fame. Another thing you failed to mention Morris pitched in era after the DH was introduced and the lowering of the mound to take away from pitching dominance. All pitchers struggled throughout the 70′s and 80′s because of this. He was the best pitcher for a decade. Here are the starting pitchers voted in from the 80′s forward an the number rings they have won Blyleven – 2, N.Ryan – 1, D.Sutton – 0, Niekro – 0, Carlton – 2, Seaver – 1, Perry – 0, Jenkins – 0, Palmer – 3, Hunter – 5
Drysdale – 3, Marichal – 0, Gibson – 2. Only one pitcher has more rings than Morris and that is Catfish Hunter. Morris’s accomplishments speak for themselves which is why he should be in the Hall Of Fame.

]]> By: materialman80 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/04/jack-morris-would-lower-the-bar-for-the-hall-of-fame/comment-page-2/#comment-408279 Wed, 05 Dec 2012 20:20:43 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=269251#comment-408279 Morris was a good pitcher, no question. Hall of Fame pitcher…..maybe not.

]]> By: jkulaksr http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/04/jack-morris-would-lower-the-bar-for-the-hall-of-fame/comment-page-2/#comment-408198 Wed, 05 Dec 2012 18:44:08 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=269251#comment-408198 Speaking for some of us who were there to see Morris pitch, I think it should be noted that Morris many times ate up innings just to bail out the rest of the Tigers bullpen which was weak at best. His ERA is higher because of this. He was not a 6 inning pitcher like a lot of the current pitchers. He was high on the complete games list and numbers of innings pitched just because the Tigers had a weak bullpen. Second, he was a moody tempermental guy who really irritated most of the writers of the day. He didn’t like doing interviews and let the writers know this. That is one of the reasons that he didn’t get many votes in the early days. We had to have turnover in the Baseball Writers to see his true value and not be swayed because they didn’t like him. While his numbers weren’t the greatest because he was a team player and pitched innings for the team, he was the best of the ’80s. One of my definitions of a Hall of Fame player is was he the elite of his time. I believe he was and so do most of his teammates.

]]> By: vikesfansteve http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/04/jack-morris-would-lower-the-bar-for-the-hall-of-fame/comment-page-2/#comment-407932 Wed, 05 Dec 2012 05:46:31 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=269251#comment-407932 Morris pitched major innings and completed games which allowed the relief pitchers to get rest which made his teams better. I find it funny that the argument that he was barely the best pitcher of the 80′s because he only had 22 more wins than Dave Steib during that time while also noting that he played on better teams. Then you go on to say Carlton was far superior winning just 2 more games in the early 80′s (ignoring the fact the Phillies played in 2 World Series) and Roger Clemens by 10 games in the late 80′s, even though the Red Sox were in a World Series and the playoffs then. Then saying he only led the league in wins twice. I mean c’mon, let’s beat the shit out of him he stinks. I mean he only won the Babe Ruth award twice for the most valuable player in the post season. The dude was a winner and succeeded while the pressure was on. Was he Sandy Koufax? No, but he was better than other players in wins by 22 for a decade. Hasn’t that always been the criteria for greatness and the H.O.F, how you played in compariasan to your contemporaries?

]]> By: churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/04/jack-morris-would-lower-the-bar-for-the-hall-of-fame/comment-page-2/#comment-407855 Wed, 05 Dec 2012 02:37:36 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=269251#comment-407855

What happened to integrity, personal responsibility and character in sports?

It’s never been brought up before, when the HoF didn’t care about cheaters, drug users, both illicit and performance enhancing, guys busted for DUIs, and many other issues. Or did you forget that?

]]> By: goirishgo http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/04/jack-morris-would-lower-the-bar-for-the-hall-of-fame/comment-page-2/#comment-407733 Tue, 04 Dec 2012 23:59:03 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=269251#comment-407733 I can’t explain it. I’d make the same argument about Blyleven that I’m making about Morris. How exactly do players become so much more Hall worthy over time? Their accomplishments don’t change.

]]> By: anvil35 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/04/jack-morris-would-lower-the-bar-for-the-hall-of-fame/comment-page-2/#comment-407691 Tue, 04 Dec 2012 23:06:45 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=269251#comment-407691 Jack Morris will lower the bar but the idiots that cheated to improve personal performance are okay to enter? Wow. What happened to integrity, personal responsibility and character in sports?

]]> By: churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/04/jack-morris-would-lower-the-bar-for-the-hall-of-fame/comment-page-2/#comment-407677 Tue, 04 Dec 2012 22:58:48 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=269251#comment-407677 How is he similar to Blyleven? When you needed to take Morris’s career and add on to it Mariano Rivera’s career to equal Blyleven’s peripherals, how are they similar?

]]> By: kardshark1 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/04/jack-morris-would-lower-the-bar-for-the-hall-of-fame/comment-page-1/#comment-407592 Tue, 04 Dec 2012 21:21:18 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=269251#comment-407592 Then what you are referring to seems more like clutch and not “pitch to the score” like the initial post implied.

In that case, of course it’s a ridiculous notion. I believe people can choke under pressure, but in no way do I believe somebody can raise their natural ability under pressure or in a tight game and become better than what they are.

And no, Jack Morris should not be in the HoF, but then again, I use logic, not a popular concept with sports writers. And frankly, I get that… People who love to write and do it professionally probably grew up with a vivid imagination that led to storytelling/writing as an adult. The HoF voters should be made up of mathmeticians/science guys, not storytellers/writers. I say, go to your nearest biotech company, find 20 guys in white coats that are buried under fluorescent lights all day and have them vote. I’d feel much better with their selections.

]]> By: 78mu http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/04/jack-morris-would-lower-the-bar-for-the-hall-of-fame/comment-page-1/#comment-407532 Tue, 04 Dec 2012 20:21:02 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=269251#comment-407532 kardshark:

I suspect the number of innings Morris pitched with a 10 run lead (or even a 6 run lead) are pretty insignificant.

The “pitch to score” is not to deny that the pitch selection may be different in the 7th inning of a 10-0 game than it was in a scoreless 1st. But that’s not what Morris supporters are talking about. They are claiming his numbers would have been better if only it had been necessary. That seems to be at best an unprovable hypothesis and gives him credit he didn’t earn on the mound.

Steib had 5 seasons during the 1980s where he had a better ERA+ than Morris” best of 127. Did Steib pitch in a lot fewer 6-0 games than Morris or was he just the better pitcher? The stats are what they are and to say Morris could have done better if only he had had to is ridiculous. I suspect his numbers in the 186 games he lost were similar to his stats in the 254 games he won with the biggest difference being the number of runs scored by his team.

]]> By: mpilatzke http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/04/jack-morris-would-lower-the-bar-for-the-hall-of-fame/comment-page-2/#comment-407509 Tue, 04 Dec 2012 19:57:23 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=269251#comment-407509 I am not for Jack Morris for the hall of fame, but I consider his resume to be identical to other unspectacular pitchers such as Bert Blyleven, Don Sutton and Phil Niekro. The Hall Of Fame voters have made a habit of voting in pitchers who were never elite, but could hover between good and great for a long time. Jack would fall in that same category, so I think the bar already got lowered to some extent with those three pitchers, and could not get any lower with Morris’s inclusion into the HOF. Doesn’t mean I agree with it, but it’s probably the most accurate comparison to current Hall of Famers.

]]> By: kardshark1 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/04/jack-morris-would-lower-the-bar-for-the-hall-of-fame/comment-page-1/#comment-407471 Tue, 04 Dec 2012 19:22:44 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=269251#comment-407471 Every pitcher pitches to the score, it’s not even debatable, sorry. If you don’t believe me, then show me the last time somebody was intentionally walked in a 10-0 ball game. Show me the last time somebody was pitched around in a 10-0 ball game in the 9th inning. When a pitcher has a big lead, he is less willing to risk a chance of a walk — as he should. In a tight game, a pitcher may pitch for the ground ball (to prevent a costly sac fly or pitch for a DP). In a 10 run game, a pitcher is not worried about preventing the sac fly as much, or inducing the DP as the risk of a walk. He just wants to prevent a rally. In fact, he’d probably take the sac fly, especially if it was in the 9th inning. It’s just common sense, pitchers pitch differently depending on the score of the game.

]]> By: Todd Boss http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/04/jack-morris-would-lower-the-bar-for-the-hall-of-fame/comment-page-2/#comment-407460 Tue, 04 Dec 2012 19:04:37 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=269251#comment-407460 If part of your argument is that Morris wasn’t deemed worthy on his first year on the ballot, then how do you explain Bert Blyleven’s 1998 ballot total of only 17.5%? Not Trolling, just pointing out a fact. http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1998.shtml

]]> By: moogro http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/04/jack-morris-would-lower-the-bar-for-the-hall-of-fame/comment-page-2/#comment-407428 Tue, 04 Dec 2012 18:23:19 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=269251#comment-407428 I think we need to discuss this nihilism about protecting the Hall being meaningless because of some sketchy people in there. I don’t think throwing up your hands and giving up is the way to think about it. That’s always a weak argument. It’s a museum. I think you can give patrons credit for recognizing curatorial mistakes in the past (especially given the insane way people are voted in), and still be more rigorous and critical in the present. The Hall selections can evolve and improve the same way the game can. Ignore replay anyone? We don’t need to continue to be stupid and/or political.

I was taken aback, a little, when Puckett got in with his short career at the time. He would have gotten in anyway, because his career would have included the requisite few more years of awesomeness before his Decline Years. He was destroying baseball. There would no Morris game 7 without the Puck. For those that “were there” and “used our eyes” it was consensus that Morris was a journeyman that needed to pull a big one out of his ass for the Twins to win against Smoltz, who was looking like a HOF trajectory guy. I’m glad that he did. But it’s jarring and dissonant now to hear HOF talk include him. He was pretty good, but not HOF.

]]> By: dexterismyhero http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/04/jack-morris-would-lower-the-bar-for-the-hall-of-fame/comment-page-2/#comment-407412 Tue, 04 Dec 2012 18:11:01 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=269251#comment-407412 Hell, they put Lynn Swann in the NFL HoF. After that anybody should get in. 336 rec in 9 years.

I vote in Cookie Rojas, Smokey Burgess, and Clay Dalrymple.

Boom!

]]> By: fanofevilempire http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/04/jack-morris-would-lower-the-bar-for-the-hall-of-fame/comment-page-1/#comment-407404 Tue, 04 Dec 2012 18:05:55 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=269251#comment-407404 he sure does have a lot of Rings…………….
he really suxs………………………
I wonder how many of you actually saw him pitch…………………

HOF is a popularity contest now………………………..

bunch of bitter old writers who never even skip rope………………….

and young guys who love making up new stats to prove they are smart………………..

]]> By: shoehole http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/04/jack-morris-would-lower-the-bar-for-the-hall-of-fame/comment-page-1/#comment-407388 Tue, 04 Dec 2012 17:42:57 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=269251#comment-407388 If I remember, Morris pitched a no hitter against the White Sox in the early to mid 80′s.
Morris lost a lot of respect from his Tigers team and writers when he begged to be released so he could finish his years in Mn. After his contract with the Twins expired, he started jumping around to other teams and did not retire.
By the way, how can you compare stats of Morris against outfielders?

]]> By: Tick http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/04/jack-morris-would-lower-the-bar-for-the-hall-of-fame/comment-page-1/#comment-407321 Tue, 04 Dec 2012 16:37:42 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=269251#comment-407321 Maybe I’m being flippant here, but besides a guy like Stieb, I don’t even see where Morris was a more dominant pitcher than Brett Saberhagen or Dave Stewart during a lot of the time frame that Morris pitched in and there’s certainly no one arguing for any of them to get inducted.

]]> By: weaselpuppy http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/04/jack-morris-would-lower-the-bar-for-the-hall-of-fame/comment-page-1/#comment-407314 Tue, 04 Dec 2012 16:30:07 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=269251#comment-407314 Right, so we’ll keep on with shutting Tigers out of the HOF….Tram, Whitaker, Freehan….all should be in…carry on.

]]> By: iranuke http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/04/jack-morris-would-lower-the-bar-for-the-hall-of-fame/comment-page-1/#comment-407299 Tue, 04 Dec 2012 16:12:20 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=269251#comment-407299 Based on Wins Above Replacement (WAR), Mr. Morris is the 17th most qualified player on the Hall of Fame ballot. David Wells and Fred McGriff were worth more wins in their career than Mr. Morris was.

]]> By: Gamera the Brave http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/04/jack-morris-would-lower-the-bar-for-the-hall-of-fame/comment-page-1/#comment-407290 Tue, 04 Dec 2012 15:58:59 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=269251#comment-407290 klempner,
The REAL issue I have with your comment is your complete inability to correctly spell Snuffalufagus.
Sad, really…

]]> By: ezthinking http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/04/jack-morris-would-lower-the-bar-for-the-hall-of-fame/comment-page-1/#comment-407289 Tue, 04 Dec 2012 15:58:28 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=269251#comment-407289 Better writing? It seems if you bitch enough and get the right writers to devise a compelling story by using select facts, you get in the hall.

]]> By: zebbers http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/04/jack-morris-would-lower-the-bar-for-the-hall-of-fame/comment-page-1/#comment-407283 Tue, 04 Dec 2012 15:51:23 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=269251#comment-407283 There are so many bad picks already in there.

]]> By: bigleagues http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/04/jack-morris-would-lower-the-bar-for-the-hall-of-fame/comment-page-1/#comment-407274 Tue, 04 Dec 2012 15:46:54 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=269251#comment-407274 I only brought Evans up because fuddpucker terms Tony Perez’ absence from the Hall as a ‘travesty’. Which is, of course, ludicrous.

But I like your theory on Rice/Lynn vs Evans.

And while I’m at it Rice/Lynn/Evans. O.M.G. What I wouldn’t give for just one more year w/ an OF of that caliber.

]]> By: hushbrother http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/04/jack-morris-would-lower-the-bar-for-the-hall-of-fame/comment-page-1/#comment-407263 Tue, 04 Dec 2012 15:41:57 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=269251#comment-407263 Every argument for Morris is a dumb one, but his candidacy really isn’t about arguments. It’s about the traditional writers taking a slap at the sabermetric crowd.

]]> By: AlohaMrHand http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/04/jack-morris-would-lower-the-bar-for-the-hall-of-fame/comment-page-1/#comment-407261 Tue, 04 Dec 2012 15:41:16 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=269251#comment-407261 Pete Rose isn’t in yet Bert Blylevin is.Thats all you need to know about the Hall of Fame

]]> By: rodtorfelson http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/04/jack-morris-would-lower-the-bar-for-the-hall-of-fame/comment-page-1/#comment-407243 Tue, 04 Dec 2012 15:15:11 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=269251#comment-407243 Or Pee Wee Reese and George Kell.

If you’re worried about lowering the bar to the HoF, it’s too late. That ship sailed a long time ago.

]]> By: churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/04/jack-morris-would-lower-the-bar-for-the-hall-of-fame/comment-page-1/#comment-407236 Tue, 04 Dec 2012 15:06:37 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=269251#comment-407236

Evans is one of the most underrated players of all time. Though, oddly enough, probably only the 2nd most underrated Evans of his ERA (he was better than Darrell, but Darrell gets *no love from anybody at all!*)

Probably has to do with being really good in a lot of areas, and not great in one. Kenny Lofton suffers from the same situation. By all accounts his raw totals should get him in Cooperstown, but no one is advocating his induction.

]]>