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Shocker: current Hall of Famers happy no one got elected yesterday

Jan 10, 2013, 8:23 AM EDT

Gossage

This Associated Press report is full of living Hall of Famers crowing about yesterday’s Hall of Fame shutout. I won’t quote Goose Gossage because just about everyone in the planet has run his over-the-top rebop by now. Do remember, however, that prior to his induction Gossage believed that the Hall of Fame should open its doors to everyone and since his induction he basically thinks only he, Babe Ruth and maybe Willie Mays belong.

Other Hall of Famers, however, were just as pleased as Gossage. Take Al Kaline, for instance:

“I’m kind of glad that nobody got in this year,” Kaline said. “I feel honored to be in the Hall of Fame. And I would’ve felt a little uneasy sitting up there on the stage, listening to some of these new guys talk about how great they were.”

His later comments in the article make it clear that his discomfort is due to PEDs, but that doesn’t explain why watching Craig Biggio — a guy, like Kaline, who hung on and got 3,000 hits — would upset him so.

Dennis Eckersley joined the chorus too:

 

Seems right. Guys who are suspected of PEDs are bad. Almost as bad as players who make 13 year-old kids buy pot for them and then defend their actions by saying “I don’t recall anything from over 20 years ago. That’s what I’m sticking to.”  Really: the baseball writers had no problem with the character of a guy who turned teenage team employees into drug mules and then offered a statement that makes Barry Bonds’ flaxseed oil story seem like the Sermon on the Mount, but Mike Piazza and Jeff Bagwell get blackballed because they heard a guy say that he knew a guy who says that maybe they used steroids once.

It’s all too much. So thank God for Juan Marichal, who won’t play along with this nonsense:

“I think that they have been unfair to guys who were never found guilty of anything. Their stats define them as immortals. That’s the reality and that cannot be denied … What we’re witnessing here is innocent people paying for the sinners.”

Look Juan, you have to understand: there is a price to be paid to keep Goose Gossage happy, and we should all just accept that, OK?

100 Comments (Feed for Comments)
  1. Chris Fiorentino - Jan 10, 2013 at 8:28 AM

    Thank you Juan Marichal.

    • dcfan4life - Jan 10, 2013 at 8:45 AM

      Juan is saying Clemens belongs. Well Clemens head got bigger. Mcgwires, Sosas, Bonds, all their head got bigger. They may not have been caught doing anything when they played, and all but Mcgwire havent admitted anything, but there is always the eye test for some people. However with no implications, a solid resume, Raines and Biggio should have gotten in this year. Thank god Greg Maddux is on the ballot next year. if he receives less than 98% then the baseball writers need to relinquish their voting ability.

      • Chris Fiorentino - Jan 10, 2013 at 9:00 AM

        Yes, and these are the same exact people who voted in Gaylord Perry. Where was their morals then? And this is a guy who actually cheated on the field. A lot. And admitted it.

      • philliesblow - Jan 10, 2013 at 9:51 AM

        What’s wrong with a big head?

        Signed,

        Placido Polanco

    • gosport474 - Jan 10, 2013 at 8:49 AM

      The more I see and hear from Juan Marichal, the more I realize what a true class act he really is.

      • 18thstreet - Jan 10, 2013 at 8:57 AM

        Agreed. And yet, he almost killed a man on the baseball field.

        Life is complex.

      • gosport474 - Jan 10, 2013 at 9:14 AM

        Agreed 18thstreet, Marichal and Roseboro became great friends later on, life is not only complex but funny.

      • philsieg - Jan 10, 2013 at 9:28 AM

        A long time ago, 18thstreet, a long time ago. People change.

    • fanofevilempire - Jan 10, 2013 at 11:20 AM

      close down the HOF, as soon as possible.

      • alang3131982 - Jan 10, 2013 at 12:31 PM

        It will, if this continues….which might be fine with a lot of fans. I love the hall of fame, went to college near it and my favorite trip with my father was too it. it’s turned into a place that I dont want/need to visit — you cant cry for the Hall, they chose and stick by the writers, but in so doing, they’re making the Hall of Fame irrelevant.

  2. darthicarus - Jan 10, 2013 at 8:30 AM

    Well we all know that if you get in on your first ballot the plaque is made a little nicer, the janitor dusts it a few more times, and it gets hung on the wall with better screws. Second ballot and beyond you’re just a scrub that managed to get in and everyone views them with disgust on their face. They’re also in a separate wing referred to as the “Almost” Hall of Fame.

    • dcfan4life - Jan 10, 2013 at 10:10 AM

      There are 294 Hall of Famers, and only 44 first ballot. That means players like Joe DiMaggio, Cy Young, Rogers Hornsby, Yogi Berra, Carl Hubbell, Lefty Grove, Hank Greenberg, Robin Roberts, Whitey Ford, Eddie Mathews, Grover Cleveland Alexander, Harmon Killebrew, Jimmie Foxx, Ferguson Jenkins, Duke Snider, Mel Ott, Tris Speaker, Juan Marichal, Pie Traynor, Dizzy Dean, Roy Campanella, Bill Dickey, Catfish Hunter, Phil Niekro, Don Sutton, Orlando Cepeda, Carlton Fisk, Gary Carter, Andre Dawson, Roberto Alomar and Barry Larkin among many others who did NOT get in on their first ballot. A lot of scrubs in that list i guess…

      • darthicarus - Jan 10, 2013 at 12:33 PM

        Exactly my point. Most of these guys are going to get in eventually…what the hell is the point of the writers not putting them in now as opposed to oh I don’t know 12 years later? Nothing has changed in the performance of the player, just the attitude of the voters.

      • dcfan4life - Jan 10, 2013 at 8:45 PM

        Ya i know, i was using that list to continue your point. Everybody needs to stop getting their panties in a bunch. Guys will get in eventually and be honored the way they deserve.

  3. DelawarePhilliesFan - Jan 10, 2013 at 8:34 AM

    Just a thought – and I know that is highly discouraged when disagreeing – perhaps they really are not concerned with the “character” of the PED club. Perhaps they believe there is a cloud over what they would have accomplished without PED’s.

    Sorry, continue on with your rant Craig. Will be nice when you finally return to…..writing about baseball

    • stex52 - Jan 10, 2013 at 8:45 AM

      They’d best be. Because the character issue in this case is about as ugly as any I have seen. I don’t remember that story about Eckersley; but we obviously put a really repoulsive human being in the HOF.

      • stex52 - Jan 10, 2013 at 9:12 AM

        “repulsive” Don’t type so quickly.

      • DelawarePhilliesFan - Jan 10, 2013 at 9:20 AM

        There are many repulsive ones in there indeed.

      • yahmule - Jan 10, 2013 at 9:32 AM

        Since when did being a repulsive human being disqualify anybody from celebrity status? The Ray Lewis slobber fest that fans and media will engage in this weekend is a prime example.

      • stex52 - Jan 10, 2013 at 10:04 AM

        sad but true, Yahmule.

      • Tick - Jan 10, 2013 at 11:24 AM

        If anyone should keep their head down and shut their mouth, it’s Eckersley. This guy was in the middle of Steroids ground zero and if it bothers him now, it should have bothered him then. Am I supposed to believe that he didn’t know Canseco, McGwire and half of his team mates were juicing? Did he try to do anything to get them to stop or did he just enjoy his run to the World series every year? In fact, as a guy who went from the scrap heap to a miraculous career resurgence on that team, he should be just as suspect as someone like Bagwell. Hypocrites, the lot of them.

    • mrfloydpink - Jan 10, 2013 at 9:34 AM

      Boy, by reading on the story AND commenting, you sure showed him that people aren’t interested in this kind of iterm.

      And by the way, how is talking about the Hall of Fame not “writing about baseball.” Did you listen to the radio or watch ESPN or look at a newspaper or go to a sports-centered website in the last 24 hours? What other Earth-shattering baseball-related story were they talking about that this blog is ignoring?

      • DelawarePhilliesFan - Jan 10, 2013 at 9:46 AM

        I will give you a little bit of leeway since a lot of people do show the sentiment you are lecturing me on. That said – read my post. I never said I don’t care. In fact, by noting that I wish he would get back to writing on other topics, I was stating that I do care.

        I’ll answer for what I write. I will not answer for others. Sorry

  4. Chris Fiorentino - Jan 10, 2013 at 8:34 AM

    And another thing regarding the Goose Gossage nonsense…did those who keep running his BS even mention the fact that he didn’t have two stinking words to say when Gaylord Perry was inducted? Gaylord Perry, a guy who ACTUALLY CHEATED the game of baseball? There are arguments as to whether Steroids make you better. There is no argument that WHAT GAYLORD PERRY DID HELPED MAKE HIM BETTER. He admits it!!! Yet Gaylord’s an angel and 7-time Cy Young winner Roger Clemens is a black mark on the game. How pathetic.

    • weavahvbc - Jan 10, 2013 at 8:59 AM

      i hear that’s called “gamesmanship” not “cheating.”

      • Chris Fiorentino - Jan 10, 2013 at 9:01 AM

        LOL yeah and what Pete Rose was doing was “for entertainment only”

    • DelawarePhilliesFan - Jan 10, 2013 at 9:22 AM

      I agree – but then again, I also thought Gaylord Perry did not belong in the Hall

      • paperlions - Jan 10, 2013 at 9:32 AM

        Check out Perry’s career. He was pretty fantastic for a very long time. Better career than guys like Glavine or Smoltz.

      • DelawarePhilliesFan - Jan 10, 2013 at 9:36 AM

        And what were his stats when he didn’t doctor the ball? Yea, I don’t know either.

        But to be clear (which is tough in small posts), it’s just my opinion, and I am not bothered he is in the hall. Would not have been bothred if Clemens and Bonds got in either

      • Chris Fiorentino - Jan 10, 2013 at 10:03 AM

        I am fairly sure he doctored the ball for almost all of his career.

        https://sites.google.com/site/brettbushthesis/chapter-4/discussion-of-the-research-questions-1/2-who-in-major-league-baseball-history-is-considered-a-scandalous-player/a-already-in-the-hall-of-fame/gaylord-perry

        And I agree with you…I don’t care that Perry is in the Hall. I do care about the idiotic Gossage talking crap about Bonds and Clemens when he didn’t say a word about Perry.

      • DelawarePhilliesFan - Jan 10, 2013 at 10:10 AM

        Totally agree re: Gossage staying silent on his buddies while trashing others

    • yahmule - Jan 10, 2013 at 9:35 AM

      I don’t think Frank Robinson would consider Gytalord an angel. He was quite a pitcher, though. Anybody who was watching baseball during his career knows Perry didn’t gain as much advantage from loading up baseballs as he did from making opposing hitters believe he was loading them up. Mind game, baby.

      • yahmule - Jan 10, 2013 at 9:36 AM

        Gytalord. Sounds like someone who would have fought Godzilla. I think I meant Gaylord just then.

      • Chris Fiorentino - Jan 10, 2013 at 10:06 AM

        Either way, he gained an advantage. Which is more than can be DEFINITIVELY said about the users of the PEDs.

      • yahmule - Jan 10, 2013 at 11:14 AM

        Anybody who claims PEDs do not give athletes an edge is either deliberately disingenuous or utterly self deluded. It’s laughable that people still cling to that argument.

      • yahmule - Jan 10, 2013 at 11:18 AM

        Want to know why Ben Johnson devastated the world record in the 100 meter dash with an unheard of clocking of 9.69 in the 1984 Olympics?

        Because the baseballs were wound tighter that year. People need to grow up already and admit the obvious.

      • churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Jan 10, 2013 at 11:41 AM

        Anybody who claims PEDs do not give athletes an edge is either deliberately disingenuous or utterly self deluded. It’s laughable that people still cling to that argument.

        No one (should be) saying that PEDs don’t give an edge, it’s just how much of an edge do they actually provide? When people do actual studies*, involving science and math, and show that the actual benefit of ‘roids to a baseball player are less than other factors (expansion, smaller ballparks, changes to the ball, etc) and people still feel the need to go “lol ‘roids make players hit 500′ HRS” some of us on the science/math side get a bit annoyed.

        *http://steroids-and-baseball.com/

        Want to know why Ben Johnson devastated the world record in the 100 meter dash with an unheard of clocking of 9.69 in the 1984 Olympics?

        Johnson ran a 10.22, good for third, in ’84. He was busted in ’88 while running a 9.79. And unless you are going to make a claim that the reason he dropped half a second off his team is solely due to ‘roids, you don’t know a lot about sprinting.

      • cur68 - Jan 10, 2013 at 12:22 PM

        Ya: IIRC pretty much all of the athletes in that race with Johnson have been caught doping in one form or another. One or two admitting they were doping in that race vs. Johnson (the likelihood is high that Carl Lewis, that effin blowhard, is one of them: see the documentary “Bigger, Stronger, Faster”, 2008. Lewis admits to a number of failed drug tests). The chances are very high that that race you cite in 1984 was a level playing field: they were all doping. Hence, the likely reason Johnson blew them away was because he was better than they were, ‘roids or no ‘roids.

        Steroids have been around since 1930. They really gained prominence in the 1956 Olympics: the Soviet athletes were just HUGE. They are recorded in pro sports in America from around the ’60’s onwards and articles written in the early ’70’s confirm their presence in baseball. However, HR production spikes DO NOT occur around the advent of steroids in baseball. It seems being able to hit a ball 2/10 times isn’t affected much by being big and strong (see Pena, Wily Mo: poster boy for huge guy with no contact skillz who can just send them but hits ~ 3/10 hitter pre-steroids & co-inciding with bouncier balls) took advantage of BOTH the baseball and of steroids and were now able to REALLY clean up: where before just well above average, a juiced Bonds was now KILLING it. The fact is with the lively balls Bonds still hit a lot out because a HR is a HR if its over the wall or if its in McCovey Cove: all Bonds did was see to it that a goodly portion of his fly balls became homers but his contact rate was about the same and improvements there are easily attributable to patience and practice.

        I don’t understand why the whole HR Spike thing needs to come out of a needle. Steroid use is notoriously hit or miss with as many mediocre guys getting caught as good hitters. Whereas a bouncier, livelier ball ALWAYS travels further when struck. The whole thing likely came out of Spalding’s factory rather than a needle.

      • cur68 - Jan 10, 2013 at 12:24 PM

        PS: It was the 1988 Olympics. I forgot the “sic” after “1984”.

      • cur68 - Jan 10, 2013 at 12:29 PM

        However, HR production spikes DO NOT occur around the advent of steroids in baseball. It seems being able to hit a ball 2/10 times isn’t affected much by being big and strong (see Pena, Wily Mo: poster boy for huge guy with no contact skillz who can just send them but hits ~ 3/10 hitter pre-steroids & co-inciding with bouncier balls) took advantage of BOTH the baseball and of steroids and were now able to REALLY clean up: where before just well above average, a juiced Bonds was now KILLING it.

        WTF does that mean? Edit fail. Lets try this: However, HR production spikes DO NOT occur around the advent of steroids in baseball. It seems being able to hit a ball 2/10 times isn’t affected much by being big and strong (see Pena, Wily Mo: poster boy for huge guy with no contact skillz). Now Bonds, a guy who can hit ~ 3/10 pre-steroids (& co-inciding with bouncier balls) took advantage of BOTH the baseball and of steroids and was then able to REALLY clean up: where before he was just well above average, a juiced Bonds was now KILLING it.

      • cur68 - Jan 10, 2013 at 12:29 PM

        However, HR production spikes DO NOT occur around the advent of steroids in baseball. It seems being able to hit a ball 2/10 times isn’t affected much by being big and strong (see Pena, Wily Mo: poster boy for huge guy with no contact skillz who can just send them but hits ~ 3/10 hitter pre-steroids & co-inciding with bouncier balls) took advantage of BOTH the baseball and of steroids and were now able to REALLY clean up: where before just well above average, a juiced Bonds was now KILLING it.

        WTF does that mean? Edit fail. Lets try this: However, HR production spikes DO NOT occur around the advent of steroids in baseball. It seems being able to hit a ball 2/10 times isn’t affected much by being big and strong (see Pena, Wily Mo: poster boy for huge guy with no contact skillz). Now Bonds, a guy who can hit ~ 3/10 pre-steroids (& co-inciding with bouncier balls) took advantage of BOTH the baseball and of steroids and was then able to REALLY clean up: where before he was just well above average, a juiced Bonds was now KILLING it.

      • cur68 - Jan 10, 2013 at 12:30 PM

        sigh I give up.

      • yahmule - Jan 10, 2013 at 5:04 PM

        You should give up, Cur. The increasingly desperate attempts to obfuscate the issue does your side no favors.

        Steroids enable athletes work out harder and recuperate quicker.
        This helps build muscle.
        That increases strengh and quickness.
        This increases bat speed.
        The longer a hitter can wait on a pitch, the greater advantage he has at the plate.
        This translated into numbers that were unheard of and it doesn’t have jackshit to do with a goddamn stiff like Wily Mo Pena.

        But, again, obfuscating the issue is what comprises most of your argument.

        No doubt other factors contributed to the offensive numbers during the era. The owners and commissioner felt that was how they would bring back fans after the strike. No question players felt various external and internal pressures to use PEDs. Clearly, the sportswriters shouldn’t be acting sanctimonious after the fact. They knew Bonds was juiced out his mind and they rewarded him with four MVP awards. That was the time to take a stand and they didn’t have the balls to do it.

        The people who want to call Barry Bonds the best hitter of all time are free to do just that. Babe Ruth’s lifetime slugging percentage of .690 was higher than Bonds managed in a single season pre-steroids, but who cares? Bouncier baseballs, right?

        Honestly, I really don’t care about the Hall of Fame, but the sheer dishonesty of the PED apologists is making me enjoy their angst and hand wringing.

      • yahmule - Jan 10, 2013 at 5:11 PM

        churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged – Jan 10, 2013 at 11:41 AM

        “Johnson ran a 10.22, good for third, in ’84. He was busted in ’88 while running a 9.79. And unless you are going to make a claim that the reason he dropped half a second off his team is solely due to ‘roids, you don’t know a lot about sprinting.”

        ——————————-

        No, I think steroids had nothing to do with Ben Johnson’s vast improvement. Know why? Because I’m a self deluded steroid apologist with a great big axe to grind.

        Keep perpetuating the same disingenuous arguments. You’ll never run short of outrage fuel.

      • cur68 - Jan 10, 2013 at 10:43 PM

        Mulie-baby provide scientific studies that show steroids improve baseball performance and I’m witcha. Otherwise you’re working with a set of assumptions which you have no business having. Once again: big & strong does NOT = good at baseball. It just does not.

    • cktai - Jan 10, 2013 at 10:05 AM

      Another interesting aspect to the comparison with Perry is that PEDs are banned because they pose a threat to the player’s own health. Safer substances such as enhancing substances such as caffeine and taurine are allowed. The spitball on the other hand was banned because it posed a threat to other players.

      Where Bonds and Clemens threatened their own lives by cheating, Perry endangered the lives of others.

      • ctony1216 - Jan 10, 2013 at 11:27 AM

        Steroid use by ML players risks the lives of all the players who hope to be pro ballplayers. It’s a much bigger list.

      • cktai - Jan 10, 2013 at 12:01 PM

        So does bragging about throwing a spitball. “If Perry did it, and boast about it, I should try it as well!” If I had tried out the spitball like I had tried out the knuckleball, casualties would have been a real possibility. Instead, with my knuckleball, batters had several minutes to go into hiding before the ball missed them by a country mile.

      • cur68 - Jan 10, 2013 at 12:44 PM

        People die from amphetamine use FAR more often than steroid use. Of the two classes of drugs, amphetamines are BY FAR the more dangerous. Steroids = dangerous is true, but its bike riding without a helmet vs motorcycle riding without a helmet when comparing steroids to amphetamines.

    • El Bravo - Jan 10, 2013 at 10:28 AM

      Preach brotha!

  5. paperlions - Jan 10, 2013 at 8:42 AM

    It’s funny that Gossage runs his mouth so much considering that he is one of the worst HOF selections by the BBWAA in history.

    • philliesblow - Jan 10, 2013 at 9:48 AM

      The power of wearing pinstripes.

    • 18thstreet - Jan 10, 2013 at 3:32 PM

      Bruce Sutter was a Yankee? Dennis Eckersly was a Yankee?

      One can argue that Goosage doesn’t deserve enshrinement, but he’s hardly the worst closer there.

  6. jeffbbf - Jan 10, 2013 at 8:44 AM

    Yeah Craig, we get it. You think these guys should be in. Ad fricken’ nauseum.

    • jeffbbf - Jan 10, 2013 at 8:51 AM

      And aren’t you some kind of ex-lawyer? Referring to allegations made 10 years ago about something that was alleged to have happened 30 years ago by a man accused of child molestation as if they were factual? Pretty scummy. Time to clear the pool.

    • churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Jan 10, 2013 at 8:51 AM

      No one is forcing you to read these articles. If you don’t like it, door’s on your left.

      • DelawarePhilliesFan - Jan 10, 2013 at 9:23 AM

        Jeff is actually Craigs editor, so he actually is forced to read it

  7. aceshigh11 - Jan 10, 2013 at 8:50 AM

    Man, I didn’t know that about Eckersley.

    I’ve always liked him, but what a dirtbag thing to do, and then to pretend it didn’t happen in such a snide, sarcastic way.

    • stlouis1baseball - Jan 10, 2013 at 3:01 PM

      I am with you Aces. As a Dennis Eckersley fan this is certainly disheartening.
      Hypocritical….holier than thou…”dirtbagish”…you name it!

    • largebill - Jan 10, 2013 at 3:41 PM

      One could read his denial as snide & sarcastic. However, it could just be an honest answer. Eckersley was a pretty far gone alcoholic so his claim to not remember stuff from before sobering up may just be the truth. Heck, I’ve forgotten most of the 60’s to 80’s myself.

  8. roverboy1949 - Jan 10, 2013 at 8:54 AM

    I think that the HOF should be disbanded and just let every person who loves the sport remember those who played the game any way they want. I will always think of Tony Conigliaro as a HOFer, even though he never made it in due to his tragic beaning. I will remember guys like Mantle, Mays, Bench, and others of that era. Also, I will include Bonds, Sosa, and MacGuire as great players, but on a different level as those who played without PED’s. Most of the players had some form of assist in their game, but I will see them in my own way, and not rely on anyone else to tell me who was great and who wasn’t.

  9. hisgirlgotburrelled - Jan 10, 2013 at 9:00 AM

    Someone should direct these guys to this blog so they’ll see there was more than just Bonds and Clemens on the ballot.

  10. bigyankeemike - Jan 10, 2013 at 9:01 AM

    The more CC posts his angry rants about the supposed injustices done yesterday, the happier I am that nobody got in.

    • mrfloydpink - Jan 10, 2013 at 9:37 AM

      The more bigyankeemike posts his snide remarks, the happier I am that the Yankees are getting older and slower by the day.

      Enjoy spending $200 million to not make the playoffs, stud.

  11. navyteach - Jan 10, 2013 at 9:02 AM

    I’m OK with waiting a year for guys like Clemens and Bonds. But let’s be realistic here, they are not just the best of their generation, they are among the top 10 (position player and pitcher) to ever play the game. Agree, Gossage needs to shut up because there are a LOT of guys in the HOF who had character issues or cheated. What about the players who used greenies in the 60s and 70s? Should the HOF kick them out? Keep in mind that the ‘suspected’ list of amphetamine users includes a guy named Willie Mays. The Steroid Era is ugly but MLB allowed it to happen. If the HOF doesn’t allow Clemens and Bonds to enter then there shouldn’t be a HOF.

    • largebill - Jan 10, 2013 at 3:45 PM

      ” If the HOF doesn’t allow Clemens and Bonds to enter then there shouldn’t be a HOF.”

      Huh? The Hall of Fame is not doing anything to disallow the admittance of Bonds, Clemens or anyone else, besides Rose.

  12. simon94022 - Jan 10, 2013 at 9:02 AM

    Yeah, let’s exclude guys based on the “eye test”. Because we know from the actual testing results that PED users hardly ever turn out to be skinny middle relievers or wiry middle infielders. It’s just power hitters, right?

    • churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Jan 10, 2013 at 10:07 AM

      Or that no pitcher ever got busted using ‘roids either.

  13. dwrek5 - Jan 10, 2013 at 9:07 AM

    Do these Hall of Famers realize if no one gets in, interest dies down, HOF loses money, and soon no one gets to see their ugly mug hanging on the wall? Great club guys! By keeping players out, you are keeping fans out.

  14. simon94022 - Jan 10, 2013 at 9:12 AM

    The stupidity of punishing the PED users lies in the fact that nobody knows who they were. You have one HOF candidate who tested positive (Palmeiro), one guy who confessed (McGwire), and a bunch of hearsay evidence against other guys. The Federal government launched massive prosecutions against Bonds and Clemens and failed to prove anything.

    Meanwhile, you’ve got strong circumstantial cases against a few players like Bagwell, but BBWAA members vote for him anyway under the “not proven” theory — as if anybody else is a proven PED user.

    And obviously there are PED users already in the Hall who got there because the PEDs they chose to use didn’t swell their heads or cause them to break gimme run records.

    This is all just turning Cooperstown into the Hall of Mediocrity. Maybe instead of revamping the voting process, baseball needs a new institution to replace this farce altogether.

  15. paperlions - Jan 10, 2013 at 9:12 AM

    The biggest problem with the comments by HOF players is that they are insinuating that either everyone on the ballot did steroids and none of them should be elected (for which there is no evidence) or that no one on the ballot for which there is no reasonable suspicion is worthy, which is just ignorant.

    • stex52 - Jan 10, 2013 at 9:16 AM

      I guess you could call it a strong argument for the fact that having players vote for the HOF is not going to fix the system, either.

    • Chris Fiorentino - Jan 10, 2013 at 9:21 AM

      The problem moving forward is that next year, these same writers are going to vote for Maddux, Glavine, and Thomas and say they were clean. Oh really? How do you know? How does anyone KNOW whether Maddux or Glavine took HGH? How does anyone KNOW whether Thomas took Steroids?

      It has to be an all or none era…if you don’t want to vote for anyone in the steroid era…then don’t vote for ANYONE. Don’t play God and tell us who took PEDs and who didn’t. Either vote in the best of the best of the cheating era or don’t vote any of them in.

      • ricospilaggio - Jan 10, 2013 at 9:26 AM

        Exactly. I’ve always been suspicious of the Big Hurt because he protested so loudly, knowing there was no drug testing on the horizon. Kind of like the closed homosexual who slams gay people. But who could possibly know for sure?

      • paperlions - Jan 10, 2013 at 9:28 AM

        Yep. There is no way to distinguish between the evidence that Bagwell used steroids and Thomas used steroids (there is none). Both were skinny, both got big (Thomas actually got bigger and more ripped than Bagwell). Bagwell was actually the better player, not quit the hitter Thomas was, but far far superior in the field and on the bases. But many writers will make the distinction based on nothing at all and then try to justify it with something lame like Thomas hit more HR.

  16. ricospilaggio - Jan 10, 2013 at 9:22 AM

    I’d like to see someone with balls and a conscience, already in the Hall, stand up and say “Yes, I did steroids. And then maybe another one follows. And then another. Then maybe everyone will be treated equally. Dare to dream.

  17. gosport474 - Jan 10, 2013 at 9:22 AM

    You know, as someone who sees and understands both sides of the this argument, the shame is that the writers who withheld their votes or tried to make some kind of protest statement have done a disservice to those who truly belong. I have no real problem if you didn’t vote for Bonds, Clemens, and Sosa this year. But why withhold voting for Biggio, Bagwell, Piazza, etc. That is where the double standard is coming. The writers say they hear rumors about Bags and Piazza so they are going to wait. Well, get off your lazy behinds and go out and do some investigative journalism. Then if something substantial turns up, withhold your vote. But don’t let hearsay keep deserving players out. I think it is a crime that Biggio and Piazza didn’t get in this year. And pathetic that Bagwell hasn’t in previous years.

  18. kicksave1980 - Jan 10, 2013 at 9:32 AM

    What a piece of trash Eckersley is. I met him twice and was blown away by his attitude. Let me first say that I’m not an autograph hound. When I was in high school, one of my buddies and I used to skip class once a year or so and go to a Cardinals day game. One particular day in 96 or 97, we were walking around a fairly empty Union Station…never anyone there in the morning during a weekday. We see Rollie Fingers and Dennis Eckersley filming a Just For Men commercial outside near the ponds, so we watch in amusement from a distance. After they’re finished, I approached Eckersley to just shake his hand and tell him what a fan I was. He looked me in the eyes, tells me that he doesn’t have time to talk to everyone (maybe 4 people total out there), screams at his female assistant to hurry up, and SPRINTS to a waiting car. Upon seeing that, Rollie Fingers came over and talked to us for 5-10 minutes…complete class act.

    • 18thstreet - Jan 10, 2013 at 3:46 PM

      You know, it’s possible he was heading to a nephew’s birthday party. Or visiting orphans in the hospital. Or heading to a bordello. You don’t know.

  19. juanhughjazz - Jan 10, 2013 at 9:42 AM

    Did you really compare Kaline with Biggio? Biggio may have had a similar number of hits, but Kaline had over 100 more HRs and was 20 points higher in BA over their careers.

    • churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Jan 10, 2013 at 10:11 AM

      And Biggio had more 2Bs, more SBs, and more runs in his career. He also played a much tougher defensive position than Kaline.

      • cackalackyank - Jan 10, 2013 at 2:31 PM

        We were not all born to be power hitters

    • kirkvanhouten - Jan 10, 2013 at 10:34 AM

      First off, yes, Kaline was undoublty better. Just want to be clear that I’m not claiming they’re equals.

      But you have to take into account that Biggio played a position where offense was much more scarce and he was an excellent baserunner. In terms of raw numbers, .281/.363/.433 for a 2nd baseman is just as valuable as .297/.376/.480 from an outfielder.

      Of course, Kaline put up his numbers in an era where runs were much harder to come by, which is why he tops Biggio by about 20 WAR.

  20. randygnyc - Jan 10, 2013 at 9:56 AM

    I think this crop of players/cheaters/criminals (steroids are illegal drugs), should be kept out. After each of them pass away, they should be included in a yet to be built separate “out” building. There, the cheating players can get recognition for their accomplishments, with the understanding they were aided by PED’S. This will satisfy those that think ignoring baseballs history is irresponsible. It will teach future players and fans (particularly the younger ones), that there should be no reward for cheating. No induction ceremony. Just inclusion to the hall of what could’ve been……

    • churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Jan 10, 2013 at 10:13 AM

      It will teach future players and fans (particularly the younger ones), that there should be no reward for cheating. No induction ceremony. Just inclusion to the hall of what could’ve been……

      But why now? Plenty of current HoF’ers cheated, through many different means. No one cared then, so why do they care now?

      • kirkvanhouten - Jan 10, 2013 at 10:41 AM

        I think what he meant to say was:

        “It will teach future players and fans that there should be no reward for cheating, unless that cheating is bat corking, sign stealing, amphetamine use, ball doctoring, using steroids but not getting caugh and virtually everything John McGraw did.”

      • churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Jan 10, 2013 at 10:46 AM

        Exactly!

  21. raysfan1 - Jan 10, 2013 at 10:02 AM

    Juan–Biggio also played higher defensive value positions (catcher, 2B, and CF) whereas Kaline played 1B. However, nobody said Kaline was any worse or better a ballplayer than Biggio. The only statement was that Kaline and Biggio both hung on to achieve 3000 hits. As an aside, if Kaline had retired a year earlier, he would have held onto a career .300 average, which also used to be considered a magic HoF entry number..

    • kalinedrive - Jan 10, 2013 at 1:47 PM

      You aren’t actually suggesting that the 135 games Kaline played at 1B in his career take away from the defensive value he provided for 2033 games in RF, along with 487 games in CF, right? You do give a little extra credit for being widely recognized as one of the best right fielders in history, and not just a generic right fielder, right? I saw him field and throw. If you didn’t, you can read about it.

  22. drewsylvania - Jan 10, 2013 at 10:25 AM

    I guess the majority of them still have lawns.

  23. yournuts - Jan 10, 2013 at 10:43 AM

    Sorry Craig, you have it wrong. Cheaters should never be allowed into the hall. If you cheat on an exam, but were smart enought to pass the course, you’re still a cheater. It doesn’t matter if everyone else cheated, you still cheated. Once a cheater, always a cheater.

    • thereisaparty - Jan 10, 2013 at 11:42 AM

      Jeter once faked like a pitch hit him, was award first, AND proceeded to take the base. Once a cheater always a cheater!

    • churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Jan 10, 2013 at 11:45 AM

      Plenty of cheaters already in the hall. Why is this so hard to understand?

  24. sincitybonobo - Jan 10, 2013 at 12:06 PM

    I don’t get the outrage, guys. Nobody got in this year and there will probably be five or so getting in next year.

    Bonds and Clemens weren’t getting in on the 1st ballot. Their careers benefitted most from steroids and are, predictably, facing the most scrutiny.

    Biggio, like Alomar, will wait a year or two. Even Verducci voted for Bagwell- but not for Piazza. Reading between the lines, I don’t think Piazza’s numbers cost him Verducci’s vote.

    • thereisaparty - Jan 10, 2013 at 12:12 PM

      How do you know that Bonds and Clemens benefited the most from steroids?

      • paperlions - Jan 10, 2013 at 1:09 PM

        Exactly. Being the best is not the same as benefiting the most.

    • cackalackyank - Jan 10, 2013 at 3:04 PM

      As it has been pointed out before, Bonds most assuredly has an HOF type of line before the “juicing” began, Clemens, maybe not quite as certain if he would pass muster before whatever he started doing in ’97 or ’98 SEEMED to rejuvenate his career. So what benefit for certain did they get for whatever they did? Also, there are more than a few players where steroid use is known to have occured that have decidedly non HOF careers. So how come Bonds and Clemens benefited from this use and other players did not? Is it just even remotely possible that Bonds and Clemens had superior skills, superior non-steroid related conditioning, and determination which led them to build their records? If their numbers merit HOF Induction I do not understand the logic of saying that just because back in the day Joe D., Yogi etc. were made to wait, that players now should have to wait,when several should have been open and shut first ballot Inductees. (Not even meaning just Bonds and Clemens) Lets not forget that back in the day men were kept from playing in the Majors because of the color of their skin…clearly an outrage. SO we see that not everything that was done “back in the day” was a good idea..but to this point, “back in the day” is a part of the HOF. But now, when presented with one of the most loaded ballots ever, with several players posessing stats that used to GUARNTEE Induction, NOT ONE PLAYER got in, first ballot or otherwise? That IS an outrage.

  25. mrznyc - Jan 11, 2013 at 12:08 AM

    The vote was perfect – Perfect because they’re all guilty – Either they were juicing or they knew who was juicing and did nothing about it – So no one gets in – Next year they’ll get around to sorting out who has legitimate claims, but this year the message is plain and simple – You did a bad thing – Don’t do it again.

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