Comments on: Using their logic, the BBWAA has to keep Tom Glavine out of the Hall of Fame, right? http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/11/using-their-logic-the-bbwaa-has-to-keep-tom-glavine-out-of-the-hall-of-fame-right/ Baseball. Baseball. And then a bit more baseball. Wed, 19 Jun 2013 01:23:32 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.com/ By: binarymath http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/11/using-their-logic-the-bbwaa-has-to-keep-tom-glavine-out-of-the-hall-of-fame-right/comment-page-1/#comment-426316 Mon, 14 Jan 2013 14:23:30 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=286288#comment-426316 grrr, I hate it when I have a typo. Last line should be “…kill off the HOF” not HOC.

]]> By: binarymath http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/11/using-their-logic-the-bbwaa-has-to-keep-tom-glavine-out-of-the-hall-of-fame-right/comment-page-1/#comment-426315 Mon, 14 Jan 2013 14:21:44 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=286288#comment-426315 HOF voters have painted themselves into a corner. They either have to admit that the 2013 “nobody gets in” vote was a one-time protest (which proves once and for all the the subjectivity bias that voters SWEAR they do not have), or they have to keep everybody out, which is even more absurd.

As fans, we put up with the self-serving “here’s my HOF ballot” vanity articles. But we also watched the players, attended the games, and read the box scores. So his stuff all HAPPENED, and no amount of protest voting can erase that.

The protest vote also ticked off the town-folks of Cooperstown, NY who depend on the tourism boost during Induction Week.

So here is what the voters can do for 2014.

1. stop playing God. You said nothing about steroids when it was happening. Don’t play the self-righteous game now.
2. vote in no fewer than 5 players a year over the next 5 years (look at the currently eligible players, and the upcoming classes, and then try to tell me there are not 25 worthy candidates.)
3. eliminate the gutless blank vote farce. Only count non-blank ballots when figuring the 75% requirement for induction. Or better yet, require each eligible writer to vote for a minimum number of players. No more hiding behind a blank ballot.

If the 2014 vote also inducts no one, I look for someone like Disney/ESPN to open a competing museum. And if the competing museum allows fan voting, it will kill off the HOC.

]]> By: Chris Fiorentino http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/11/using-their-logic-the-bbwaa-has-to-keep-tom-glavine-out-of-the-hall-of-fame-right/comment-page-1/#comment-425965 Sat, 12 Jan 2013 23:31:17 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=286288#comment-425965 You snuck that into you last comment. Your previous two mentioned nothing about the BBWAA. My apologies for missing “their rationale” in your comment.

wpjohnson…you can go fuck yourself.

]]> By: lordd99 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/11/using-their-logic-the-bbwaa-has-to-keep-tom-glavine-out-of-the-hall-of-fame-right/comment-page-1/#comment-425926 Sat, 12 Jan 2013 21:39:12 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=286288#comment-425926 You are right; it was common knowledge. The Yankees tried to insert some type of steroid-related language when they signed Jason Giambi, I think along the lines providing protection for them if he physically broke down or was shown to be taking steroids. Obviously, the players’ union would have none of it. Yet it shows the front office of teams were very much aware something was going on, yet they obviously didn’t want to address it head on. It was too profitable.

MLB, from the executive level to the players, and those supporting the game, including the media and the fans, just didn’t care. Just the opposite. They loved the offense and looked the other way, creating the acceptance and further use of PEDs. It’s why I have a problem with the BBWAA’s retroactive crusade. They were part of this.

]]> By: lordd99 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/11/using-their-logic-the-bbwaa-has-to-keep-tom-glavine-out-of-the-hall-of-fame-right/comment-page-1/#comment-425919 Sat, 12 Jan 2013 21:20:52 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=286288#comment-425919 Jeremy, I have no idea which players took what and when, or what it did. I have noticed, though, that it wasn’t uncommon to find out that the players who did speak out against PED usuage were then discovered to be using PEDs. David Ortiz and Ryan Braun are just two examples. A player speaking out against other players, while trying to present himself as one of the “good guys” and above suspicion is pretty damn low. It may be why most players never did come out and say anything. Maybe most were using, or had experimented, so they just didn’t feel comfortable coming out and saying anything.

I also remember the Clemens connection with Schillling. Wouldn’t be shocked at all if Schilling juiced. One thing the Mitchell Report showed was pitchers seemed to be juicing at a higher percentage than position players, but they didn’t necessarily show the body changes. I’m pretty agnostic on the whole steriod period. I knew it was going on. We all did. MLB did. The front office types did. The players certainly did. The media. Fans. In that, Schilling was right. An environment of acceptance was created, which ultimately forced more players into at least trying it, so I’m willing to give these guys a pass. Not so with anyone who has failed since 2003.

]]> By: wpjohnson http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/11/using-their-logic-the-bbwaa-has-to-keep-tom-glavine-out-of-the-hall-of-fame-right/comment-page-1/#comment-425891 Sat, 12 Jan 2013 20:00:20 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=286288#comment-425891 I’ve read a lot of truly stupid posts on MLB,com. However, I want to congratulate Chris Fiorentino. His above post is absolutely and beyond any doubt the dumbest post ever to appear on the internet- let alone MLB.com. Man, he must be dumb.

]]> By: sabatimus http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/11/using-their-logic-the-bbwaa-has-to-keep-tom-glavine-out-of-the-hall-of-fame-right/comment-page-1/#comment-425879 Sat, 12 Jan 2013 19:40:15 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=286288#comment-425879 The level playing field argument, I think, works for football but not baseball. Because football is much more of a team sport, where there’s 22 guys on the field all jockeying for position at the same time. In baseball, one man at the plate can change the course of a game with one swing.

]]> By: sabatimus http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/11/using-their-logic-the-bbwaa-has-to-keep-tom-glavine-out-of-the-hall-of-fame-right/comment-page-1/#comment-425876 Sat, 12 Jan 2013 19:35:46 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=286288#comment-425876 I agree, no sarcasm. It IS logical. That doesn’t mean that BBWAA is doing the right thing. That’s open to a variety of opinions. I myself am on the fence about it: I don’t want cheaters in the Hall, but if that’s true I’d have to advocate kicking out Aaron, Mays, and Schmidt (among many others I don’t know about, I’m sure) for taking amphetamines. I also think the banned substances list is idiotic on so many levels, and that people like Clemens and Bonds put up HOF numbers before they juiced, and ALSO that the character clause should be removed.

In short, the fence I’m on is about as wide as the Polo Grounds was long.

]]> By: dcfan4life http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/11/using-their-logic-the-bbwaa-has-to-keep-tom-glavine-out-of-the-hall-of-fame-right/comment-page-1/#comment-425773 Sat, 12 Jan 2013 12:14:11 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=286288#comment-425773 Wow, reread my comment. Im saying thats actually how the BBWAA thinks. I said “their rationale”. Pay attention to whats being said to you before you respond please. And yes, i agree, that logic is idiotic. But with a squeeky clean background and amazing stats, I promise you the BBWAA votes Maddux in first time, no question.

]]> By: Chris Fiorentino http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/11/using-their-logic-the-bbwaa-has-to-keep-tom-glavine-out-of-the-hall-of-fame-right/comment-page-1/#comment-425752 Sat, 12 Jan 2013 05:52:30 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=286288#comment-425752 Bonds and Clemens were involved in a steroid investigation, therefore, they definitely cheated. And Maddux “may have cheated” but he should still be voted into the Hall his first time.

Wow…that’s seriously as idiotic a rationale as anything said by any of the members of the BBWAA.

]]> By: raysfan1 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/11/using-their-logic-the-bbwaa-has-to-keep-tom-glavine-out-of-the-hall-of-fame-right/comment-page-1/#comment-425726 Sat, 12 Jan 2013 03:44:15 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=286288#comment-425726 Don’t know why the thumbs down–that link was pretty funny

]]> By: dcfan4life http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/11/using-their-logic-the-bbwaa-has-to-keep-tom-glavine-out-of-the-hall-of-fame-right/comment-page-1/#comment-425718 Sat, 12 Jan 2013 03:19:27 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=286288#comment-425718 Both Bonds and Clemens trials were the direct result of a steroid investigation. And the writers opinions are thus, Bonds and Clemends definately cheated, Maddux may not have. Based on his stats and their rationale, he gets in the HOF next year.

]]> By: klownboy http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/11/using-their-logic-the-bbwaa-has-to-keep-tom-glavine-out-of-the-hall-of-fame-right/comment-page-1/#comment-425704 Sat, 12 Jan 2013 02:45:41 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=286288#comment-425704 I wasn’t trying to compare the two. All I was saying was baseball writers and purists need to chill with that “integrity” bullshit. Not everyone in the HOF is a saint.

And I’ll say it before, and I’ll say it again: neither Bonds nor Clemens failed any drug tests. And even if they did, they were HOF’ers long before any alleged drug use – just check their numbers.

]]> By: thereisaparty http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/11/using-their-logic-the-bbwaa-has-to-keep-tom-glavine-out-of-the-hall-of-fame-right/comment-page-1/#comment-425649 Fri, 11 Jan 2013 23:28:03 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=286288#comment-425649 Glavine played on a team that couldn’t stop making the playoffs, which helped him reach an arbitrary milestone. This clearly makes him better than Schilling.

]]> By: thereisaparty http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/11/using-their-logic-the-bbwaa-has-to-keep-tom-glavine-out-of-the-hall-of-fame-right/comment-page-1/#comment-425636 Fri, 11 Jan 2013 23:00:43 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=286288#comment-425636 I was a little late on the trigger, Church’ and ‘Lions. But look at the numbers!

]]> By: thereisaparty http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/11/using-their-logic-the-bbwaa-has-to-keep-tom-glavine-out-of-the-hall-of-fame-right/comment-page-1/#comment-425635 Fri, 11 Jan 2013 22:58:36 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=286288#comment-425635 The height of stupidity is to interpret Rule 5 of the HOF’s election requirements ["Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played"] to having bounds outside of PED usage?

And I don’t think we need to use the word “alleged” when talking about the character of Ty Cobb.

]]> By: thereisaparty http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/11/using-their-logic-the-bbwaa-has-to-keep-tom-glavine-out-of-the-hall-of-fame-right/comment-page-1/#comment-425630 Fri, 11 Jan 2013 22:52:43 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=286288#comment-425630 WPJohnson,

K%, BB%, FIP-, ERA-, fWAR, rWAR, postseason performance all tilt heavily in Schilling’s favor.

Maybe you can convince me that Tom Glavine is substantially more HOF-worthy than Kevin Brown?

]]> By: churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/11/using-their-logic-the-bbwaa-has-to-keep-tom-glavine-out-of-the-hall-of-fame-right/comment-page-1/#comment-425629 Fri, 11 Jan 2013 22:50:57 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=286288#comment-425629

If you have looked at the numbers and you still don’t think Glavine was far superior to Schilling, there is no hope for you.

K/BB:
Schilling – 4.38 (best all time of any pitcher with 1,000+ innings)
Glavine – 1.74

K/9
Schilling – 8.6
Glavine – 5.3

BB/9
Schilling – 2.0
Glavine – 3.1

WHIP
Schilling – 1.137
Glavine – 1.314

ERA
Schilling – 3.46
Glavine – 3.54

ERA+
Schilling – 127
Glavine – 118

Glavine has the edge in wins (305 to 216), IP (4413 to 3261) and essentially a push in win % (.600 to .597). So what numbers should we look at to see Glavine was much better again?

]]> By: paperlions http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/11/using-their-logic-the-bbwaa-has-to-keep-tom-glavine-out-of-the-hall-of-fame-right/comment-page-1/#comment-425628 Fri, 11 Jan 2013 22:48:07 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=286288#comment-425628 WPJ, Schilling had a better ERA, struck out guys at a higher rate, walked fewer guys…..he was better in every way except longevity. The differences are more stark if you bother to account for park effects. The only thing Glavine did was pitch longer.

]]> By: thereisaparty http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/11/using-their-logic-the-bbwaa-has-to-keep-tom-glavine-out-of-the-hall-of-fame-right/comment-page-1/#comment-425626 Fri, 11 Jan 2013 22:46:11 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=286288#comment-425626 So are you a big pitcher wins fan? Or RA9-Wins? One of these cases is legitimate, the other I will completely ignore.

Please try to construct a case where Glavine is the superior pitcher.

]]> By: paperlions http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/11/using-their-logic-the-bbwaa-has-to-keep-tom-glavine-out-of-the-hall-of-fame-right/comment-page-1/#comment-425625 Fri, 11 Jan 2013 22:45:49 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=286288#comment-425625 Then you aren’t looking at the right numbers. Without using pitcher wins, go find something that says Glavine was better. Good luck.

]]> By: wpjohnson http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/11/using-their-logic-the-bbwaa-has-to-keep-tom-glavine-out-of-the-hall-of-fame-right/comment-page-1/#comment-425620 Fri, 11 Jan 2013 22:24:29 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=286288#comment-425620 If you have looked at the numbers and you still don’t think Glavine was far superior to Schilling, there is no hope for you.

]]> By: wpjohnson http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/11/using-their-logic-the-bbwaa-has-to-keep-tom-glavine-out-of-the-hall-of-fame-right/comment-page-1/#comment-425618 Fri, 11 Jan 2013 22:21:49 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=286288#comment-425618 You can’t be serious. Glavine’s numbers are H of F. Schilling’s numbers are not. And neither are Morris’s numbers.

]]> By: wpjohnson http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/11/using-their-logic-the-bbwaa-has-to-keep-tom-glavine-out-of-the-hall-of-fame-right/comment-page-1/#comment-425613 Fri, 11 Jan 2013 22:16:45 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=286288#comment-425613 Baseball had and continues to have many so called “racists” of all shapes and colors. If Ty Cobb didn’t like minorities, what did that have to do with his performance and accumulated numbers? Nothing. To compare rampant use of PEDs with alleged “racist” opinions is the height of stupidity. There is no comparison.

]]> By: thereisaparty http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/11/using-their-logic-the-bbwaa-has-to-keep-tom-glavine-out-of-the-hall-of-fame-right/comment-page-1/#comment-425611 Fri, 11 Jan 2013 22:14:08 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=286288#comment-425611 And one of the greatest postseason pitchers of all-time. And that is not hyperbole, like when such praise is used to describe Jack Morris.

]]> By: ugglasforearms http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/11/using-their-logic-the-bbwaa-has-to-keep-tom-glavine-out-of-the-hall-of-fame-right/comment-page-1/#comment-425596 Fri, 11 Jan 2013 21:50:57 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=286288#comment-425596 That’s some Klown spamming bro’

]]> By: Walk http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/11/using-their-logic-the-bbwaa-has-to-keep-tom-glavine-out-of-the-hall-of-fame-right/comment-page-1/#comment-425508 Fri, 11 Jan 2013 20:10:44 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=286288#comment-425508 I think the issue being overlooked is the collective bargaining agreement. The players agreed to certain testing and other rules and provide their services as outlined in their contracts. To get increased testing they would need to be offered some form of compensation. Increase retirement benefits or base salary or something. The players had no incentive to agree to a new contract mid contract. That is a lot like a player saying he deserved a raise because he had a good year. Now glavine as a player rep is supposed the be the bad guy because the players simply wanted to uphold a written contract? There was more than one signature on that contract. Do not get confused every party involved in baseball had a hand in this stink, from the players to the reporters to the front office, and yes even the fans were indirectly involved as we watched the game come back from a strike riddled and troubled season and poyred into the stands at a great pace to see shattered records. The hall of fame is supposed to recognise the best players of their era and judge them by their peers of that era. As deplorable as i think it is the era of mcgwire and sosa and bonds played in is called the steroids era, judge these players as best you can by their peers and move on.

]]> By: paperlions http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/11/using-their-logic-the-bbwaa-has-to-keep-tom-glavine-out-of-the-hall-of-fame-right/comment-page-1/#comment-425487 Fri, 11 Jan 2013 19:36:23 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=286288#comment-425487 No sure how it is that people don’t realize how good Schilling was….yeah, he was an asshat, but he was also a fantastic pitcher. He has the best K/BB ratio since baseball decreased the number of ball required for a walk to 4 (in 1889) of any pitcher to throw at least 1000 innings.

]]> By: klownboy http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/11/using-their-logic-the-bbwaa-has-to-keep-tom-glavine-out-of-the-hall-of-fame-right/comment-page-1/#comment-425478 Fri, 11 Jan 2013 19:23:46 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=286288#comment-425478 The writers were crazy to leave Bonds and Clemens out. They were Hall of Famers BEFORE the alleged steroid use.

Besides, doesn’t the HOF have a racist in Ty Cobb, and probably more before integration? Give me a break.
http://wp.me/p1gCK6-z1

]]> By: ramrene http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/11/using-their-logic-the-bbwaa-has-to-keep-tom-glavine-out-of-the-hall-of-fame-right/comment-page-1/#comment-425430 Fri, 11 Jan 2013 18:10:03 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=286288#comment-425430 It’s very logical…. suspected of PED’s and you’re not getting in. Break one of the “hallowed” records and you’re never getting in.

Seems plenty logical.

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