Comments on: Paul Konerko says his 2012 was “smoke and mirrors” http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/28/paul-konerko-says-his-2012-was-smoke-and-mirrors/ Baseball. Baseball. And then a bit more baseball. Thu, 20 Jun 2013 08:21:23 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.com/ By: Jeremy T http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/28/paul-konerko-says-his-2012-was-smoke-and-mirrors/comment-page-1/#comment-434130 Wed, 30 Jan 2013 17:51:14 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=294269#comment-434130 It’s automatically posted by WordPress, I doubt that he did it on purpose. It is still annoying, though.

]]> By: stlouis1baseball http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/28/paul-konerko-says-his-2012-was-smoke-and-mirrors/comment-page-1/#comment-433963 Wed, 30 Jan 2013 15:00:16 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=294269#comment-433963 I hear you fellows. The comment was really just made sorta tongue-in-cheek.
Konerko is very much a good player. Some of the comments just make me shake my head.

You said it best Kirk…
Look at all the stud 1st Baseman in MLB. Dude has some serious talent to measure up too.
-Albert Pujols
-Jim Thome
-Todd Helton
-Lance Berkman
-Carlos Delgado
-Mark Teixeira
-Adrian Gonzalez

]]> By: kirkvanhouten http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/28/paul-konerko-says-his-2012-was-smoke-and-mirrors/comment-page-1/#comment-433782 Wed, 30 Jan 2013 01:36:03 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=294269#comment-433782 No, he’s a good player, it’s just that people get insane in these HOF debates. I should state that I merely responded to the absurd assertion that he would a legitimate HOF candidate by properly putting his career in some context.

]]> By: kirkvanhouten http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/28/paul-konerko-says-his-2012-was-smoke-and-mirrors/comment-page-1/#comment-433777 Wed, 30 Jan 2013 01:31:36 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=294269#comment-433777 So..here is his case:

1. Never anywhere close to being the best first baseman in the game
2. Finished top 10 in the MVP voting exactly twice (5th was his high).
3. Hit 422 home runs…which would have been impressive if he had a played in another era. In this one…not so much.
4. Was a poor fielder and baserunner
5. Was a contemporary of the following:
-Albert Pujols
-Jim Thome
-Todd Helton
-Lance Berkman
-Carlos Delgado
-Mark Teixeira
-Adrian Gonzalez

…all of whom were better than him. How many HOFers were the 7th best at their position?

His hall case is rather awful actually. I will go out on a limb and say that if he retired today and were elected to the hall, he would be the worse non-veterans committee pick in Cooperstown.

]]> By: kirkvanhouten http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/28/paul-konerko-says-his-2012-was-smoke-and-mirrors/comment-page-1/#comment-433773 Wed, 30 Jan 2013 01:22:02 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=294269#comment-433773 “Speaking of “smoke and mirrors” I give you….a statistic known as WAR….. So are going to tell me that Paul Konerko is the 555th best player of all time?

I’d like to see that list of 554 players that had better careers.”

If only there was some possible way for you to see that list! To bad you your keyboard apparently lacks the ability to visit baseballreference on your own.

Look, Konerko was a nice player. Hit some home runs, got on base some (not nearly to the degree of elite first baseman)…but he also played 1st base at a time when there were a plethora of elite first baseman, couldn’t field and is a poor baserunner. Where is he supposed to rank?

]]> By: Jeremy T http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/28/paul-konerko-says-his-2012-was-smoke-and-mirrors/comment-page-1/#comment-433694 Tue, 29 Jan 2013 23:06:30 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=294269#comment-433694 Yeah, that’s the pitfall that comes with HOF debates. Really, any debate about an award or honor. The mere fact that the conversation is being had means that the player is/was ridiculously talented. I think this year’s ALMVP debate was one of the clearest examples of this. Now, I still think Trout should’ve won the MVP, and I don’t think Konerko is a Hall of Famer, but they’re both still reeeeally good.

]]> By: Jeremy T http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/28/paul-konerko-says-his-2012-was-smoke-and-mirrors/comment-page-1/#comment-433684 Tue, 29 Jan 2013 22:52:24 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=294269#comment-433684 Even if he’s better than 555th, there’s no way he’s in the top 250 or so, which seems to me to be the absolute borderline of how good a player has to be to even be an undeserving HOFer.

These kinds of debates, by the way, are the main reason I’m sick of talking about the HOF. Paul Konerko has been a great player with a great career. It doesn’t seem right that we’re bringing him down…

]]> By: stlouis1baseball http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/28/paul-konerko-says-his-2012-was-smoke-and-mirrors/comment-page-1/#comment-433517 Tue, 29 Jan 2013 19:13:40 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=294269#comment-433517 Well…it’s official then.
Based on these posts…Paul Konerko might be the worst MLB player in the history of the game.

]]> By: stlouis1baseball http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/28/paul-konerko-says-his-2012-was-smoke-and-mirrors/comment-page-1/#comment-433499 Tue, 29 Jan 2013 18:58:15 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=294269#comment-433499 Absolutely Dana. Dude is solid. As you said…all he does is put up numbers.
This reminds me of Chris Carter. All he did was catch touchdown passes.

]]> By: jarathen http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/28/paul-konerko-says-his-2012-was-smoke-and-mirrors/comment-page-1/#comment-433138 Tue, 29 Jan 2013 12:22:22 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=294269#comment-433138 I have a soft spot for the Hall of Very Good. McGriff is already there.

]]> By: brewcrewchamps http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/28/paul-konerko-says-his-2012-was-smoke-and-mirrors/comment-page-1/#comment-433096 Tue, 29 Jan 2013 04:36:43 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=294269#comment-433096 Speaking of interesting, your comment and shameless plug were not.

]]> By: scatterbrian http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/28/paul-konerko-says-his-2012-was-smoke-and-mirrors/comment-page-1/#comment-433065 Tue, 29 Jan 2013 02:12:40 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=294269#comment-433065 Damn, I blew it. Swap the OPS+ (McGriff = 134).

]]> By: cur68 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/28/paul-konerko-says-his-2012-was-smoke-and-mirrors/comment-page-1/#comment-433033 Tue, 29 Jan 2013 00:10:58 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=294269#comment-433033 Konerko should be honest. It was quite clear he was forced to rely on his athleticism, natural talent, and instinct for baseball since his “grit spreader” was on the fritz. He could use a grit lesson from Juan “The Ophence” Pierre.

]]> By: jimbroney http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/28/paul-konerko-says-his-2012-was-smoke-and-mirrors/comment-page-1/#comment-433015 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 23:33:50 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=294269#comment-433015 I’d like to see Ron karkovice get elected.

]]> By: scatterbrian http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/28/paul-konerko-says-his-2012-was-smoke-and-mirrors/comment-page-1/#comment-432986 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 22:29:18 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=294269#comment-432986 @skids

“He’s been solid for many years, does his job, and doesn’t create havoc and drama.”

These things don’t make someone a Hall of Famer, and Konerko is not a Hall of Famer.

Since you clearly don’t like WAR, compare Konerko’s “real” stats to Fred McGriff’s.

.283/.359/.499/.858, 422 HRs, 1336 RBIs, 134 OPS+
.284/.377/.509/.886, 493 HRs, 1550 RBIs, 121 OPS+

Konerko is below across the board, and McGriff is not sniffing the HoF.

]]> By: oldnavyperformancefleece http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/28/paul-konerko-says-his-2012-was-smoke-and-mirrors/comment-page-1/#comment-432975 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 22:05:25 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=294269#comment-432975 Speaking of “smoke and mirrors” I give you….a statistic known as WAR….. So are going to tell me that Paul Konerko is the 555th best player of all time?

I’d like to see that list of 554 players that had better careers.

]]> By: Jeremy T http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/28/paul-konerko-says-his-2012-was-smoke-and-mirrors/comment-page-1/#comment-432958 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 21:32:15 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=294269#comment-432958 Essentially worthless on the basepaths and in the field. Never finished higher than 5th in MVP voting. He has had a long, consistent career of hitting around 30 HRs/year and a batting average hovering around .300 in his best years. That’s certainly valuable, but without a little bit of speed, defense, and batting eye, not nearly enough to make the hall of fame. He’s basically a lesser version of Mark McGwire, without the walks, and McGwire’s already borderline. Just because sportswriters aren’t likely to mention WAR by name doesn’t mean that they don’t care about all of the things that WAR is attempting to measure.

]]> By: Roger Moore http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/28/paul-konerko-says-his-2012-was-smoke-and-mirrors/comment-page-1/#comment-432944 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 21:04:43 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=294269#comment-432944 Konerko put up some nice numbers, but he was never really an elite player. He never led the league in any positive offensive category (his only league lead in any offensive category was once in GIDP) and was rarely particularly close to leading the league, either. He doesn’t score particularly well by things like the HOF standards or HOF monitor, and most of the players who are statistically similar to him who are in the HOF played in much lower scoring eras. I don’t want to sound like I’m dissing him- you don’t put together a 16 year MLB career and make the All-Star team 6 times by being a schlub- but he’s more of the “Hall of the Very Good” kind of player than a real HOFer.

]]> By: skids003 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/28/paul-konerko-says-his-2012-was-smoke-and-mirrors/comment-page-1/#comment-432932 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 20:44:07 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=294269#comment-432932 Just because he ranks 11th in some BS stat doesn’t mean he should be written off. He’s been solid for many years, does his job, and doesn’t create havoc and drama. I agree with jarathen.

]]> By: themagicfanguy http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/28/paul-konerko-says-his-2012-was-smoke-and-mirrors/comment-page-1/#comment-432916 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 20:16:27 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=294269#comment-432916 @kirk Well since WAR doesn’t mean a dang thing to most voters(for good reason), his case is better than you are making it out to be.

]]> By: scatterbrian http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/28/paul-konerko-says-his-2012-was-smoke-and-mirrors/comment-page-1/#comment-432912 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 20:05:26 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=294269#comment-432912 He was doing what through late May?

]]> By: kirkvanhouten http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/28/paul-konerko-says-his-2012-was-smoke-and-mirrors/comment-page-1/#comment-432910 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 20:00:10 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=294269#comment-432910 If he can hammer out a few more solid seasons, he could be the first member of the 500 home run club without any legitimate argument for Cooperstown enshrinement at all.

From 2004 to 2012…so chosen because that the span at which Konerko was at his absolute best….
…he ranks *11th* in WAR for first baseman. (Pujols, Cabrera, Teixeira, Berkman, Gonzalez, Youkilis, Votto, Fielder, Lee, Helton). If we shorten that to just the past 3 years, he still only ranks *9th*.

He currently ranks 555th all time in WAR and 325th all time in OPS+.

His case for Cooperstown is a very solid “no”.

]]> By: tfbuckfutter http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/28/paul-konerko-says-his-2012-was-smoke-and-mirrors/comment-page-1/#comment-432889 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 19:23:48 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=294269#comment-432889 Nice to see someone being real, honest and sounding humble.

]]> By: historiophiliac http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/28/paul-konerko-says-his-2012-was-smoke-and-mirrors/comment-page-1/#comment-432870 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 19:02:36 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=294269#comment-432870 Inconceivable

]]> By: jarathen http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/28/paul-konerko-says-his-2012-was-smoke-and-mirrors/comment-page-1/#comment-432869 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 18:59:27 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=294269#comment-432869 Konerko has quietly put together quite the career. Aside from his 2003 season, in which he was 27 (which is spectacularly odd, since it’s supposed to be his physical prime), he’s has an OPS+ of 103 or better every year since 1999. Take out his subpar 2008 season and his lowest OPS+ in that time frame becomes 116.

If he can hammer out a few more solid seasons, he will have an interesting case in Cooperstown as a clean first baseman with roughly 500 home runs and solid plate discipline. Like a Tim Salmon without the injuries.

]]> By: csndrew http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/28/paul-konerko-says-his-2012-was-smoke-and-mirrors/comment-page-1/#comment-432846 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 18:39:58 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=294269#comment-432846 Imagine if Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens came out and said the last 10 years of their career was “smoke and mirrors”….

]]> By: danaking http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/28/paul-konerko-says-his-2012-was-smoke-and-mirrors/comment-page-1/#comment-432843 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 18:39:16 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=294269#comment-432843 I’ve been a Konerko fan for years,, which can be hard, since al he does is put up numbers. He doesn’t run his mouth or get arrested or fued with the manager/teammates/media. He’s not a superstar, but he could play for me any time.

]]> By: Mauricio Rubio Jr. http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/28/paul-konerko-says-his-2012-was-smoke-and-mirrors/comment-page-1/#comment-432822 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 18:11:44 +0000 http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=294269#comment-432822 Reblogged this on Chicago, A Drinking Town With A Sports Problem and commented:
Welp, this is interesting.

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