Can the union and the Players never be on the same page – must it always be adversarial?
Seems that not every one wanted the DH – so they agreed that the DH will not be every where. I wonder how that happened.

If the thing is always adversarial, with give and takes, and money either a give or a take in most cases, if the owners say Never mind – no more banned substances, no more drug testing, and no more penalties – would the Players Union say – No thank you, we want drug testing, banned substances, and penalties for positive testing.

I’m just saying that in my opinion – stronger remedial measures – like stiffer penalties – even extreme penalties and more stringent testing policies might work [b]as a response to Craig’s column [/b] which took Mr. Mitchell to task.

Whether or not we have increased testing and stiffer penalties due to one side or the other being opposed is what is irrelevant. Craig took pains to point out what Mr. Mitchell did not say. My point is that what Mitchell did not say is also irrelevant.

PS – do you want stronger punitive measures, with more stringent testing or not? I am only asking you what you’d prefer – and not what you think the union will or would do.

are the players really saying we won’t agree to stronger measures and stronger punishments unless we are rewarded?

I’m saying there’s no REASON for the players to agree to it without a reward. There’s nothing the owners can do now to implement stronger testing or change the drug program without the player’s agreeing to it as well. Drug testing, or lack thereof, has zero repercussions for the owners. The players take all the flak for it. So why shouldn’t they want some benefit for changing the rules that can only harm them?

And what ever the percentage of players that use PEDs, do you really believe that with the current levels of testing, that those players (who use PEDs) are in the majority?

I never said it was the majority; however, a union’s job isn’t to protect the majority or the minority. The job is to protect the entire union. It’s the reason the MLBPA was against guys like Frank Thomas offering to take a drug test by themselves. It set the precedent that other guys should offer to do it, and then the ones who didn’t would look bad.

If this is the case – then let them do whatever they want Why have any testing or banned substances.

You asked the question. Why should there be banned substances in professional sports?

Finally you speak of rewards – in my job – the use of drugs who would get you fired. That quickly and that easily. It was simple – you couldn’t do them at work, or on the company premises. The job I kept was my reward.

This is absolutely irrelevant. Most likely your job isn’t governed by a CBA. If it were, and you gave up rights/privileges/whatever without getting anything in return, you should speak to your union rep.

Guys with 100mil+ contracts??? pleeease.

are the players really saying we won’t agree to stronger measures and stronger punishments unless we are rewarded?

Are the majority of the players really happy about the uneven playing field? And having their reputations sullied because the sport is dirty.

And what ever the percentage of players that use PEDs, do you really believe that with the current levels of testing, that those players (who use PEDs) are in the majority?

As former MLB Pitcher Al Leiter said on the MLB TV network show just last night – Jan 29 -
when he referenced the original Mitchell report. Why would the 92% or 93% who weren’t using the Steroids, or whatever – want to protect the 7 or 8 percent that did?

I understand that the owners and the players are in bed together beneath the blanket of money, but still – tying all of this mess up by saying that the Players Association will need to be rewarded before they’ll agree – makes it sound like the majority don’t mind the use of PEDs.

If this is the case – then let them do whatever they want Why have any testing or banned substances.

In any event you missed my point.Craig’s article was about the lack of questions emanating from Mitchell. My point was to say that asking key or even any questions about who, why, and how – will never achieve what the draconian measure will.

Finally you speak of rewards – in my job – the use of drugs who would get you fired. That quickly and that easily. It was simple – you couldn’t do them at work, or on the company premises. The job I kept was my reward.

.

The only people he could get to talk were people who would plea bargain out. Why would a player get involved? There is no way it could benefit them unless they were selling a book. The only people who benefitted from talking were the dealers who got reduced sentences.

Finally, some of those bullet points you talk about are partially realized by getting names. Like average user profile or when they start using (by looking at the spread of ages of the named etc.)

The who, the why, and the how certain players seem to be unable to resist (basically what we learn from those questions) won’t get us to where we would like to go Which is chemical free baseball

Why should the players be so concerned about a chemical free sport, when the sport has almost never been chemical free? What’s with the polyanna-ish reminiscing of what the sport used to be when we can read books, articles, newspaper reports of how the game really was? A flawed game played by flawed men and just marvel at what they can do?

But what we really need is true zero tolerance. Ya tested positive? Ok you’re DONE.
Forever.

Long term contract in place? Cancelled
Ability to serve a suspension and then get a NEW contract ? Not happening. .
You can’t support your family now? That’s on you Get a real job.

No suspensions. No fines – just permanent bans.

And precisely what reason should the most powerful union in sports, the MLBPA, have to agree to any of this? The owners are subject to the terms of the CBA just like the players are. The only way this happens is if the players agree to the terms as well. And unlike capping bonuses in the draft/IFA where the players might be under the illusion that they’ll get a larger slice of the pie, agreeing to those above terms does exactly ZERO for the players, both current and future.

Whether it be setting records on the field, putting fannies in the seats at the stadiums, greed, avarice, ego and even to keep readers returning to this site over and over again by writing articles just like every other sports/media outlet is doing that lead to discussion ( btw I am one those who visit all the time) it is getting so tiring.

Wringing our hands while we bemoan the fact that baseball players are driven by the same demons as the media, and the owners, and the fans – ie – all of us are human – and prone to ill-conceived and poorly thought out actions – isn’t ever going to get us anywhere.

Craig, while you do a nice job of pointing out what Mitchell didn’t say or should have said – all I see is that while those questions may be valid, and may help us to get a better grip or understand the situation – it is all besides the point.

The who, the why, and the how certain players seem to be unable to resist (basically what we learn from those questions) won’t get us to where we would like to go Which is chemical free baseball. But those questions can lead to us to a cultural change only and look how long that it will take.

We all know there is only one way to get there, and even that won’t stop the problem. But we have to get something in place now. Even though the CBA won’t expire until the end of 2016 (is that it?) so why not ask the questions, and then collate the data, and have answers.

Let’s find out exactly whether these latest reports are correct. And let’s drag it out as long as possible. And then we will know only only the who, and the how, and the why along with the where and when.

But what we really need is true zero tolerance. Ya tested positive? Ok you’re DONE.
Forever.

Long term contract in place? Cancelled
Ability to serve a suspension and then get a NEW contract ? Not happening. .
You can’t support your family now? That’s on you Get a real job.

No suspensions. No fines – just permanent bans.

Now if the clean players really want the sport to be clean, and they want their on reputations to remain unsoiled – then they The Players Association should do EVERYTHING they can to keep the sport clean, which means ratifying permanent bans, going along with increased random testing, and even pay for it (the testing) themselves; out of their union dues? And oh yeah, let the agents be involved in the cost of the testing as well.

The sport will never get to be 100% clean, but the sooner they get to a point where the players basically police themselves and pay for accurate policing, and the sport is chemical free – the quicker the better.

And even if we have to wait until 2017 for it – the fact that that is where we want to go, and be there =- is a good thing.

“The Union basically doesn’t trust the ownership because collusion was a $280 million theft by Selig and Jerry Reinsdorf of that money from the players. I mean, they rigged the signing of free agents. They got caught. They paid $280 million to the players. And I think that’s polluted labor relations in baseball ever since it happened. I think it’s the reason MLBPA executive director Donald Fehr has no trust in Selig.” – Fay Vincent

Do not underestimate the Toad, he was brilliant in shuffling the whole thing off onto the players. Now he gets to wring his hands and mourn for the children. And it’s the players who continue to bear the brunt of something everyone (including fans) encouraged.

What a ridiculous age we lived in….