Comments on: John Buck says Johan Santana was tipping his pitches last year

By: paperlions

paperlions — Sat, 09 Feb 2013 17:08:00 +0000

Rather than the MPH difference between the two, it may be the difference in apparent effort level, if he has to put more effort into the FB to maintain its velo and the difference between the FB and CH, hitters would pick that up easily.

By: cur68

cur68 — Sat, 09 Feb 2013 03:25:39 +0000

You a smart dude. That’s gonna be a good team there.

By: Old Gator

Old Gator — Sat, 09 Feb 2013 03:09:53 +0000

cur: so have I. It just happens to be in Toronto.

By: Old Gator

Old Gator — Sat, 09 Feb 2013 03:09:04 +0000

Yes, but in Brooklyn and Nassau the sun is always shining.

By: Jack Bauer 24

Jack Bauer 24 — Sat, 09 Feb 2013 01:28:53 +0000

Does it really matter?? he’s washed u[p and over the hill anyway . Another long miserable season lies ahead in Queens .

By: unclemosesgreen

unclemosesgreen — Sat, 09 Feb 2013 01:10:01 +0000

You’re preaching to the choir, I live by fact.

Pitch fx says 2006 diff was 11.3, 2009 was 9.9 – I’m guessing you did fastball/slider by mistake. His fastball is down avg. 4 mph, but after his no hitter it was dramatically down.

But I salute your research – not many commenters go that far.

By: thebadguyswon

thebadguyswon — Sat, 09 Feb 2013 01:05:25 +0000

278 or 134

same difference, clearly

By: thebadguyswon

thebadguyswon — Sat, 09 Feb 2013 01:04:01 +0000

After the no-no he was toast for the most part. But as he said, it was worth it.

By: thebadguyswon

thebadguyswon — Sat, 09 Feb 2013 01:02:53 +0000

Sorry….those were his fastball vs slider speeds.

To more accurately answer your statement:

His change up in 2006 averaged 82 MPH. His fastball this year averaged 88 MPH. The differences between the pitches was 11.3 MPH in 2006, 9 MPH in 2009 and exactly 11 MPH in 2012. Speed difference is the key, as you know. And sure his fastball is closer in speed now to his change then, but trust me, the man is still plenty effective. Especially considering the nature of the surgery he had.

By: thebadguyswon

thebadguyswon — Sat, 09 Feb 2013 00:54:24 +0000

In 2006, Johan had an 8.2 MPH difference between his fastball and his change.
In 2009, Johan had an 8.1 MPH difference between his fastball and his change.
In 2012, Johan had an 8.1 MPH difference between his fastball and his change.

Uncle Moses Green, meet facts.

By: yousuxxors

yousuxxors — Sat, 09 Feb 2013 00:39:12 +0000

i dont think it was the no hitter but the ankle injury he got the next game he pitched. he was doing great the next game then injured his ankke and the rest of the season was horrific.

By: unclemosesgreen

unclemosesgreen — Sat, 09 Feb 2013 00:05:03 +0000

now that’s funny

By: unclemosesgreen

unclemosesgreen — Fri, 08 Feb 2013 23:58:23 +0000

It is difficult to say exactly who cash is targeted in such a large deal (12 players all told) but Scrooge McLoria anted up $4 million as part of the trade. As Calvera said in The Magnificent Seven: “Generosity. That was my first mistake.”

It would be cool if the Jays got some of that cash to cover the Buck salary and then unloaded him on the Mets in the R.A. Dickey deal. You know – cool for the Jays.

John Buck is now the answer to a trivia question – who was involved in trades for Josh Johnson and R.A. Dickey in the same season.

By: cur68

cur68 — Fri, 08 Feb 2013 23:46:55 +0000

Our GM Who Art In Toronto did not need to sprinkle fairy dust. He did the Mets a favour and took away that awful publicity hound and nogoodnik, RA Dickey in the deal. The Buckster went the other way as a Thole, RA’s personal catcher, replacement. AA kind and giving like that. I may be freezing my narrow black ass off but I gots a ballclub to root for, boo-yeah!
smirk

By: Old Gator

Old Gator — Fri, 08 Feb 2013 23:24:40 +0000

For a guy who hit .192 last year, if Santana was tipping his peetches, someone wasn’t picking up the hints.

I missed where the Feather Lice unloaded him on the Mutts in December. I guess you could say he was traded from the Feesh in November and designated for assignment – to the Mutts – in December. For how much of the idiotic salary Scrooge McLoria paid him did Toronto get stuck, or did the Vernon Wells fairy sprinkle goopher dust on this trade too?

By: kranepool

kranepool — Fri, 08 Feb 2013 23:01:14 +0000

Last season Matt Harvey mentioned the same thing to Dan Warthen about Santana just before Johan was shut down for the season

By: tile84

tile84 — Fri, 08 Feb 2013 22:57:35 +0000

John Buck has been tipping his swings since he got paid

By: cur68

cur68 — Fri, 08 Feb 2013 22:26:53 +0000

They all tip their pitches once in a while. Every single one of them at some point will tip a pitch. The only question is: can the dude at the plate hit it? Hitting a mid 90′s fastball is damn hard, even when you know its coming. Why do we know this is true? Mariano Rivera tips every single pitch he delivers. Its a cutter, dude. It may move away from you off the plate, it may start at you and move across the plate, but it is going to cut, every time. No one on this planet can say that a batter has 1 chance in 3 to hit Mo’s stuff and yet every one knows its a cutter on the way. Whatever’s up with Johan Santana does not have that much to do with “tipping pitches”.

By: stlouis1baseball

stlouis1baseball — Fri, 08 Feb 2013 22:19:10 +0000

Good point(s) 82. I will say some teams/individuals seem to do a better job of identifying it.
It was one of the things Dave Duncan regularly watched for. Yadier still does.
But that’s probably more a product of D.D. tutelage than anything else.

By: unclemosesgreen

unclemosesgreen — Fri, 08 Feb 2013 21:55:29 +0000

Buck was 0-3 with a BB against Johan last year. It was the BB that convinced him something was wrong.

By: unclemosesgreen

unclemosesgreen — Fri, 08 Feb 2013 21:54:27 +0000

It’s just one of those things that seem to come out right before a formerly pitcher becomes eminently hittable. Like when old batters who can’t catch a good fastball anymore suddenly come up with new “swing fixes” or “timing devices.” It’s never good news.

Most important tip re: Johan – it was the no-hitter, dummies. After throwing 278 pitches that night he was never right again.

By: easports82

easports82 — Fri, 08 Feb 2013 21:54:09 +0000

I don’t think it’s really surprising that tipping isn’t found by teammates/coaches. Opponents are going to analyze very specifically between pitch types to try and get the edge. Guys on the same team are looking at overall delivery and mechanics: arm angle, landing spot, etc. Tipping is usually a tiny quirk that you have to be looking for that won’t really be noticed in side sessions.

By: stlouis1baseball

stlouis1baseball — Fri, 08 Feb 2013 21:46:34 +0000

A Pitcher tipping his pitches can very much be a death knell.
MLB hitters are well…MLB hitters. The last thing you want is to give them more of an advantage.
What I find surprising is the number of pitchers who do tip their pitches.
It’s like their coaches and/or catchers (or even other teammates) are oblivious to it.
Yet…opposing teams are all over it like a 2nd shirt.

By: jaysjunkie

jaysjunkie — Fri, 08 Feb 2013 21:43:36 +0000

And I’m betting Buck still hit for squat against Santana last year.

By: dohpey28

dohpey28 — Fri, 08 Feb 2013 21:43:18 +0000

He actually pitched really well til July hit and he ran out of gas.

Before July 6-4, 2.72, 99ip, 74 hits, 30 ER
July on 0-5, 21.50, 18ip, 43 hits, 33 ER

Those last 5 starts where horrific. But he was clearly out of gas from his rehab and slight overruse. He still averaged almost 1k per inning.

By: chill1184

chill1184 — Fri, 08 Feb 2013 21:40:40 +0000

Well whatever is was, hopefully Johan and Buck figure it out.

By: unclemosesgreen

unclemosesgreen — Fri, 08 Feb 2013 21:34:32 +0000

I have a better tip – his fastball is now about as fast as his changeup used to be. Guys can just wait and see instead of guessing.