I’m still against known PED users getting in, but you gave me some serious food for thought…

The sports page has been a part-time crime blotter since at least 1909. Better get used to it.

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9806E3D91F31E733A2575BC0A96F9C946897D6CF

I enjoy the prose here, I often learn somethign new or breaking, and is good to get the insight of others.

You would be amazed how the whole “I will provide evidence to defend my position and I expect you to do the same” can make one seem like a jerk to the average Colin Cowherd-listening and SportsCenter-viewing sports fan (Like most of my co-workers). I don’t get this high level of dialogue many other places.

/in the “Braun probably cheated but I have no problem with the suspension being overturned because the process must be respected and followed” camp.

TECHNICALITY

Craig didn’t want any parts of the word(lawyer). However, those of us who are on the side that Braun juiced, but aren’t against the decision of the arbitrator at all, think he got off on it(non-lawyers).

TECHNICALITY…it’s as dirty as any 4-letter word to a lawyer…unless it’s on the side of his/her client. Then…well…as my brother used to say…”Never a doubt baby!!!!”

I think we have a difference of opinion about the purpose of testing. I believe guilt or innocence matters. You stated that you do not care about such things. I think it’s worth looking at times a guy got away with a positive test, figuring out how he got away with it, and closing loopholes (as happened in this case, when the protocol was re-written to clarify handling procedures and eliminate situations where it’s not possible to follow protocol)

On behalf of the late Mr. Gregg, your apology is accepted

But for what it’s worth, I don’t back away from anything I say there. If you believe in the testing program, you have to take it all as a piece, not pick and choose the parts you like. You base your belief on the parts of the process you are aware of, as reported by Quinn and Fish. You have not seen the arbitrator’s decision (nor has anyone else) and therefore do not know what, exactly, he based it on. You are necessarily dismissing part of the process. A part that is just as important as the peeing in cups part.

You walked right into that into that one. What – you think I went back and found the post, and wasn’t waiting for you to say that?

But hey, if you still want to crap on Braun — if you still want to say “but his testosterone levels were high, so he’s suspect” or “MLB has egg on its face because the testing failed” — fine. Do so. It’s a free country. But if you do so, admit that you do it because you simply don’t like the results here. And spare me any whining about the past, and about how Major League Baseball was so lax in testing for so many years before now. Because as is evidenced by your Ryan Braun reactions, you wouldn’t have cared regardless.

You start with and end with all these things that you just know – you just know it by golly – that we doubters think!

And please, don’t claim “Why, hells bells Martha! I never once thought about what the headline would imply”. You do a damn good job with your headlines, it’s why a lot of us read your posts, including me. They are not accidents

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/02/24/think-braun-is-still-dirty-fine-but-at-least-admit-you-dont-care-about-drug-testing-then/

That’s a thing you said that is insulting and belittling. Just like with almost any legal case, disagreeing with one ruling is not equal to disagreeing with the entire process. There is plenty of evidence for reasonable people to come to the conclusion that it is highly likely that Braun used steroids.

But again, you simply can not say that those of us who have an opinion about Braun “don’t care about testing”. There really is no getting around it – Braun’s sample was tampered with, it degenerated, or he used PED’s. You say you don’t know. Soem of us have an opionn, and it does not mean “we don’t care about testing”. It means we think the guy got away with one.

I’ve never applied that standard. At most, re: Braun, I’ve said “not punished, therefore calling him a drug cheat and advocating for his MVP award to be vacated and holding this matter against him for the rest of his career and on in to his retirement is silly and irresponsible hyperbole, as is saying that because he beat the rap that the entire system is broken.”

But if you’ve seen me anywhere saying that Braun’s successful appeal means he didn’t use, please let me know and I’ll retract the statement.

And really people, if you’ve read Game of Shadows and still think that there is as much doubt about Bonds as there is about Braun, you probably need to read it again.

When you were practicing law, didn’t you ever lose a case where you were really sure your arguments were sound, where you had right on your side, but a judge saw things differently due to a technicality that didn’t change the basic facts of the case? Doesn’t mean you “don’t care about” the legal system, just means you lost one.

For myself, I mostly believe that the Hall is a museum that tells a story, albeit a story with amazing highs and agonizing lows. You simply cannot talk about baseball in the 90s for very long without talking about Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Griffey Jr, A-rod and quite a few others. They WERE baseball in the 90′s, and so were steroids. So put them in the Hall and talk about their greatness and also about how the integrity of the game was severely challenged by PEDs. After all, if you don’t put these guys in the Hall, who from the 90s and 2000s is worthy?

The Hall is a shrine, but it is NOT sacred.

If you care about testing you should care about the entire process, including the procedures and the appeals.

On a related note, these cases should be finalized, including appeals, before releasing any suspensions or other discipline. We should never have heard about Braun’s case.

As for being angry that Braun walked – such things happen all the time, and life moves on. But in much that same way I would have an issue with Johnny Cochran sayign I don’t care about the law because I think O.J. did it, I do take issue with people saying I don’t care about testing because I think Braun “did it”. You want to sit on the fence and say you don’t know, then sit on the fence. But don’t tell me that those of us who have an opinion “don’t care about testing”

I will also say that the integrity of the process is far more important than any one test. Indeed, I find the subject of whether Ryan Braun did or did not take testosterone to be pretty uninteresting, and I don’t think you’ll find many if any examples of me claiming that Braun was actually innocent or claiming that his actual guilt and innocence matter all that damn much.

Now, shall I pull out my copy of Game of Shadows and ask you to explain why you don’t believe Barry Bonds doped? Or do you actually believe he did and are just playing games here because you’re still mad about Braun walking?

“The appeals process is part of the Joint Drug Agreement. In forming your views on Braun you are saying that the appeals process is meaningless.”

Yes, the appeals process if part of the JDA, and the appeals process is why he did not get suspended. I never said he should be suspended despite the appeal. I said I believe he took PED’s. Accoring to you, that belief means I do not care about testing (read your quote, you said “testing”, not appeals)

When the sample was tested, it showed Braun had a greater than 20-to-1 ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone, two hormones that should appear in roughly equal amounts. Anything above 4-to-1 is considered a positive result. His sample was then put through a second test, an Isotope Ratio Mass Spectrometry test, which determines whether the testosterone in someone’s urine was made by his body or an outside, or “exogenous,” source. It determined that Braun had exogenous testosterone.

That is the “superior information” I claim to have. Brauns own team does not dispute that. Are you contending it is wrong? ?

Brauns sample either was tampered with, it degenerated, or he failed becasue he had PED’s in his system.