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	<title>Comments on: Bill James thinks Sabermetrics has overrated ground ball pitchers</title>
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	<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/22/bill-james-thinks-sabermetrics-has-overrated-ground-ball-pitchers/</link>
	<description>Baseball. Baseball. And then a bit more baseball.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 22 May 2013 01:52:41 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Lady Loves Pinstripes</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/22/bill-james-thinks-sabermetrics-has-overrated-ground-ball-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-462621</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lady Loves Pinstripes]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Mar 2013 19:51:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=320528#comment-462621</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[But Wang had serious shoulder surgery in 2009, which caused him to miss the entire 2010 season.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But Wang had serious shoulder surgery in 2009, which caused him to miss the entire 2010 season.</p>
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		<title>By: yahmule</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/22/bill-james-thinks-sabermetrics-has-overrated-ground-ball-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-461235</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[yahmule]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Mar 2013 16:51:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=320528#comment-461235</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think the guy blurts out nonsense pretty frequently, but mostly gets a pass because he&#039;s Bill James.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the guy blurts out nonsense pretty frequently, but mostly gets a pass because he&#8217;s Bill James.</p>
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		<title>By: flavadave10</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/22/bill-james-thinks-sabermetrics-has-overrated-ground-ball-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-461155</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[flavadave10]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Mar 2013 11:56:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=320528#comment-461155</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Considering strikeouts are the only way a pitcher can take the defense out of the equation, I&#039;d say they&#039;re pretty darn important. Not a necessity, but dang they sure do help.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Considering strikeouts are the only way a pitcher can take the defense out of the equation, I&#8217;d say they&#8217;re pretty darn important. Not a necessity, but dang they sure do help.</p>
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		<title>By: Uncle Charlie</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/22/bill-james-thinks-sabermetrics-has-overrated-ground-ball-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-461113</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Uncle Charlie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Mar 2013 00:50:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=320528#comment-461113</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/is-bill-james-right-about-ground-ball-pitchers-and-injuries/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/is-bill-james-right-about-ground-ball-pitchers-and-injuries/" rel="nofollow">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/is-bill-james-right-about-ground-ball-pitchers-and-injuries/</a></p>
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		<title>By: jeffbbf</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/22/bill-james-thinks-sabermetrics-has-overrated-ground-ball-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-461051</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jeffbbf]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Mar 2013 19:42:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=320528#comment-461051</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[is that a &quot;nope&quot; next to Carl Pavano&#039;s name?   ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>is that a &#8220;nope&#8221; next to Carl Pavano&#8217;s name?   </p>
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		<title>By: scoocha</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/22/bill-james-thinks-sabermetrics-has-overrated-ground-ball-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-461039</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[scoocha]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Mar 2013 18:58:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=320528#comment-461039</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[He&#039;s just an idiot now. Wrong more than 75% of the time now.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He&#8217;s just an idiot now. Wrong more than 75% of the time now.</p>
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		<title>By: GoneYickitty</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/22/bill-james-thinks-sabermetrics-has-overrated-ground-ball-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-461038</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[GoneYickitty]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Mar 2013 18:58:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=320528#comment-461038</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Different kinds of outs or more or less likely to move runners.  Some types of outs force the defense to do something that they will sometimes fail to do.  K&#039;s at the pro level are basically worthless.  You won&#039;t move the runners and you&#039;ll virtually never get on base due to a defensive mistake.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Different kinds of outs or more or less likely to move runners.  Some types of outs force the defense to do something that they will sometimes fail to do.  K&#8217;s at the pro level are basically worthless.  You won&#8217;t move the runners and you&#8217;ll virtually never get on base due to a defensive mistake.</p>
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		<title>By: marcinhouston</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/22/bill-james-thinks-sabermetrics-has-overrated-ground-ball-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-461037</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[marcinhouston]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Mar 2013 18:57:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=320528#comment-461037</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I know nothing about pitching mechanics but in a way this could make sense. A groundball hits the bottom half of the bat, a fly ball the top. So its about putting the ball lower or higher than expected. Pitchers naturally pitch at downward angle, releasing the ball during the downward forward rotation of their shoulder with a downward jerk of their elbow and flick of their wrist. If you are trying to get a ground ball by pitching deceptively low, you might put a little extra on one of these downward motions, but to get a fly ball you might hold off on part of the motion, and maybe get some back spin and higher trajectory in the process. If the ground ball is more of an art of extending akward motions and the fly ball is more of an art of moderating them, it is easy to see how the ground ball pitcher could be injured more frequently.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know nothing about pitching mechanics but in a way this could make sense. A groundball hits the bottom half of the bat, a fly ball the top. So its about putting the ball lower or higher than expected. Pitchers naturally pitch at downward angle, releasing the ball during the downward forward rotation of their shoulder with a downward jerk of their elbow and flick of their wrist. If you are trying to get a ground ball by pitching deceptively low, you might put a little extra on one of these downward motions, but to get a fly ball you might hold off on part of the motion, and maybe get some back spin and higher trajectory in the process. If the ground ball is more of an art of extending akward motions and the fly ball is more of an art of moderating them, it is easy to see how the ground ball pitcher could be injured more frequently.</p>
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		<title>By: GoneYickitty</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/22/bill-james-thinks-sabermetrics-has-overrated-ground-ball-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-461034</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[GoneYickitty]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Mar 2013 18:53:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=320528#comment-461034</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What he pretty much said was that they *always* get hurt within 2 years, but there are exceptions.  Let&#039;s not mention any fly ball pitchers who have gotten hurt (Chris Young comes immediately to mind as a guy who never gets ground balls and is hurt all the time) and let&#039;s excuse away any ground ball pitchers who haven&#039;t gotten hurt because they don&#039;t fit the point we&#039;re trying to make.  For someone who got his reputation from the cold hard use of statistics, it&#039;s pretty weak in my opinion.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What he pretty much said was that they *always* get hurt within 2 years, but there are exceptions.  Let&#8217;s not mention any fly ball pitchers who have gotten hurt (Chris Young comes immediately to mind as a guy who never gets ground balls and is hurt all the time) and let&#8217;s excuse away any ground ball pitchers who haven&#8217;t gotten hurt because they don&#8217;t fit the point we&#8217;re trying to make.  For someone who got his reputation from the cold hard use of statistics, it&#8217;s pretty weak in my opinion.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/22/bill-james-thinks-sabermetrics-has-overrated-ground-ball-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-461033</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Mar 2013 18:44:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=320528#comment-461033</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Pitchers with above average strikeout rates have the most success. While it would be ideal for a pitcher to get a one pitch out, you&#039;re more likely to get an out by avoiding contact altogether.

The pitch to contact philosophy sounds great in theory, but in reality what ends up happening is you get the Minnesota Twins pitching staff. They had the lowest K rate in the majors last season (5.90), and not surprisingly one of the worst ERAs in the league. 

The bottom line is that pitchers who get an above average number of K&#039;s prevent runs better than those who pitch to contact. 

http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2009/02/categorizing_pi_4.php

Pitchers with above average K rates in 2008 had a 3.84 ERA while pitchers with below average K rates had a 4.73 ERA. The below average K rates would be your pitch to contact guys. Also from that study we can see the most successful pitcher has a high K rate, low walk rate, and high GB rate - the ERA of 3.32 was the lowest possible ERA of all the different combinations. Your pitch to contact types did significantly worse for instance, as those with below average K rates and above average walk/GB rates had a 4.28 ERA - nearly 1 run higher on average. Even the pitch to contact types that had good walk rates and were flyball pitchers had a 4.66 ERA - showing once again that below average strikeout rates and failing to keep the fall on the ground hurts a pitcher in the long run. 

If you think that was a fluke, then feel free to look at this site - http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2010/03/categorizing_st.php.

Here, they looked at pitchers from 07-09 and found that the most successful pitchers, once again, had high strike out rates, good control, and high GB%. The pitch to contact guys, or low K rate pitchers, were the ones who struggled.

It&#039;s easy to say a pitcher&#039;s job is simply to get outs. But what&#039;s important is how the pitcher gets their outs. And if they have above average strikeout rates, and avoid pitching to contact, they&#039;ll be more successful in the long run. 

I&#039;m sure you can give me examples of how with guys on pitching to contact is important because you can get a double play. I wouldn&#039;t disagree there. But the majority of the time you want your pitchers to get their outs via the K, because that&#039;s the best way for a pitcher to prevent runs from crossing the plate.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pitchers with above average strikeout rates have the most success. While it would be ideal for a pitcher to get a one pitch out, you&#8217;re more likely to get an out by avoiding contact altogether.</p>
<p>The pitch to contact philosophy sounds great in theory, but in reality what ends up happening is you get the Minnesota Twins pitching staff. They had the lowest K rate in the majors last season (5.90), and not surprisingly one of the worst ERAs in the league. </p>
<p>The bottom line is that pitchers who get an above average number of K&#8217;s prevent runs better than those who pitch to contact. </p>
<p><a href="http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2009/02/categorizing_pi_4.php" rel="nofollow">http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2009/02/categorizing_pi_4.php</a></p>
<p>Pitchers with above average K rates in 2008 had a 3.84 ERA while pitchers with below average K rates had a 4.73 ERA. The below average K rates would be your pitch to contact guys. Also from that study we can see the most successful pitcher has a high K rate, low walk rate, and high GB rate &#8211; the ERA of 3.32 was the lowest possible ERA of all the different combinations. Your pitch to contact types did significantly worse for instance, as those with below average K rates and above average walk/GB rates had a 4.28 ERA &#8211; nearly 1 run higher on average. Even the pitch to contact types that had good walk rates and were flyball pitchers had a 4.66 ERA &#8211; showing once again that below average strikeout rates and failing to keep the fall on the ground hurts a pitcher in the long run. </p>
<p>If you think that was a fluke, then feel free to look at this site &#8211; <a href="http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2010/03/categorizing_st.php" rel="nofollow">http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2010/03/categorizing_st.php</a>.</p>
<p>Here, they looked at pitchers from 07-09 and found that the most successful pitchers, once again, had high strike out rates, good control, and high GB%. The pitch to contact guys, or low K rate pitchers, were the ones who struggled.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s easy to say a pitcher&#8217;s job is simply to get outs. But what&#8217;s important is how the pitcher gets their outs. And if they have above average strikeout rates, and avoid pitching to contact, they&#8217;ll be more successful in the long run. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure you can give me examples of how with guys on pitching to contact is important because you can get a double play. I wouldn&#8217;t disagree there. But the majority of the time you want your pitchers to get their outs via the K, because that&#8217;s the best way for a pitcher to prevent runs from crossing the plate.</p>
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		<title>By: 18thstreet</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/22/bill-james-thinks-sabermetrics-has-overrated-ground-ball-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-460992</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[18thstreet]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Mar 2013 16:03:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=320528#comment-460992</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[2,600ish MLB baseball games will take place this year. How many of them will you see with your own eyes?

In 2007, Joey Votto hit 4 homers. How many of them did you see?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>2,600ish MLB baseball games will take place this year. How many of them will you see with your own eyes?</p>
<p>In 2007, Joey Votto hit 4 homers. How many of them did you see?</p>
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		<title>By: Just a Fan</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/22/bill-james-thinks-sabermetrics-has-overrated-ground-ball-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-460986</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Just a Fan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Mar 2013 15:44:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=320528#comment-460986</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sabermetrics is garbage....leave the game to your eyes.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sabermetrics is garbage&#8230;.leave the game to your eyes.</p>
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		<title>By: spudchukar</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/22/bill-james-thinks-sabermetrics-has-overrated-ground-ball-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-460983</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spudchukar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Mar 2013 15:35:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=320528#comment-460983</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[But the error in thinking comes from the swing-and-miss approach.  If a pitcher strives to make pitches a hitter will swing and miss he is doomed.  This is what good pitching coaches constantly preach.  This is the definition of a pitcher not a thrower. 

What is essential is that on strike one, a pitcher must make a quality pitch, but not being the aim of a pitch that cannot be hit.  Almost never is a pitcher good enough to throw three pitches to a hitter that he will swing and miss, with the obvious exceptions, and assuming the hitter is at least mediocre.

Hitters who fall behind in the count have their respective averages drop 100 points.  That is a huge deal, arguably the most important one of all statistics.  Ideally, that first quality pitch will result in a hitter getting himself out, bad hitters do this consistently, good hitters do not.  (ex.)
Albert Pujols almost never swings at the first pitch recognizing the futility of doing so.

If a pitcher gains the strike one advantage, then he can become more precise.  And precision pitches do indeed result in more swing-and-misses but it is still not the goal, the goal is to make a pitch that is even less likely to be hit well, but either is a strike, or close enough for the hitter to believe it is, not wanting to fall behind 2 strikes creating a situation where he is even less likely to hit the ball solidly.  

And when a pitcher gets a two-strike advantage, he is blessed with the option of making pitches, that are even less likely to be hit, often resulting in a strikeout.  Here even pitch to contact guys get the KOs.

So while the argument may appear to be merely one of semantics, it isn&#039;t really.  It is a thought process, one that is hard to learn, but essential to succeed.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But the error in thinking comes from the swing-and-miss approach.  If a pitcher strives to make pitches a hitter will swing and miss he is doomed.  This is what good pitching coaches constantly preach.  This is the definition of a pitcher not a thrower. </p>
<p>What is essential is that on strike one, a pitcher must make a quality pitch, but not being the aim of a pitch that cannot be hit.  Almost never is a pitcher good enough to throw three pitches to a hitter that he will swing and miss, with the obvious exceptions, and assuming the hitter is at least mediocre.</p>
<p>Hitters who fall behind in the count have their respective averages drop 100 points.  That is a huge deal, arguably the most important one of all statistics.  Ideally, that first quality pitch will result in a hitter getting himself out, bad hitters do this consistently, good hitters do not.  (ex.)<br />
Albert Pujols almost never swings at the first pitch recognizing the futility of doing so.</p>
<p>If a pitcher gains the strike one advantage, then he can become more precise.  And precision pitches do indeed result in more swing-and-misses but it is still not the goal, the goal is to make a pitch that is even less likely to be hit well, but either is a strike, or close enough for the hitter to believe it is, not wanting to fall behind 2 strikes creating a situation where he is even less likely to hit the ball solidly.  </p>
<p>And when a pitcher gets a two-strike advantage, he is blessed with the option of making pitches, that are even less likely to be hit, often resulting in a strikeout.  Here even pitch to contact guys get the KOs.</p>
<p>So while the argument may appear to be merely one of semantics, it isn&#8217;t really.  It is a thought process, one that is hard to learn, but essential to succeed.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin S.</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/22/bill-james-thinks-sabermetrics-has-overrated-ground-ball-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-460967</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kevin S.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Mar 2013 14:31:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=320528#comment-460967</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I wouldn&#039;t call them a by-product, I&#039;d call them a process.  And the process is what a pitcher controls, not the outcome.  A strikeout is more certain than a batted ball.  If a pitcher can rack up strikeouts without giving up too many walks or home runs, he should.  I think you underestimate how many quality strikeout pitchers there  are.  Sure, pitchers need to stay within their abilities, and groundball/control is a formula for success, but it&#039;s still rare to be a good pitcher without having at least some swing-and-miss stuff.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wouldn&#8217;t call them a by-product, I&#8217;d call them a process.  And the process is what a pitcher controls, not the outcome.  A strikeout is more certain than a batted ball.  If a pitcher can rack up strikeouts without giving up too many walks or home runs, he should.  I think you underestimate how many quality strikeout pitchers there  are.  Sure, pitchers need to stay within their abilities, and groundball/control is a formula for success, but it&#8217;s still rare to be a good pitcher without having at least some swing-and-miss stuff.</p>
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		<title>By: spudchukar</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/22/bill-james-thinks-sabermetrics-has-overrated-ground-ball-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-460965</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spudchukar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Mar 2013 14:23:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=320528#comment-460965</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In the end, it can be summed up this way.  Great pitchers are not great because they get a lot of strikeouts.  Great pitchers are great because they make a lot of quality pitches, with the net result being they record a lot of strikeouts.  But a pitcher can be great if he records few strikeouts.  And a pitcher can also suck and still record a lot of strikeouts.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the end, it can be summed up this way.  Great pitchers are not great because they get a lot of strikeouts.  Great pitchers are great because they make a lot of quality pitches, with the net result being they record a lot of strikeouts.  But a pitcher can be great if he records few strikeouts.  And a pitcher can also suck and still record a lot of strikeouts.</p>
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		<title>By: spudchukar</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/22/bill-james-thinks-sabermetrics-has-overrated-ground-ball-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-460964</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spudchukar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Mar 2013 14:17:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=320528#comment-460964</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is exactly what it troublesome about James article.  Strikeouts are a by-product, not a goal, and if a pitcher can get an out with one pitch, that is superior to the 3,4,5 or more necessary to record a strikeout.

There are only a handful of pitchers who get the best results via strikeouts, and they are the ones with the great power stuff.  Unfortunately, the less talented strive to pitch like the elite, and suffer because of that desire.  The best strategy is to make quality pitches, especially on strike one, and let the chips fall where they may.  This really is the pitch to contact philosophy.  Of course strikeouts carry a higher percentage of outs, Duh.  But it shouldn&#039;t be a goal, just a comfortable result of excellent pitches.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is exactly what it troublesome about James article.  Strikeouts are a by-product, not a goal, and if a pitcher can get an out with one pitch, that is superior to the 3,4,5 or more necessary to record a strikeout.</p>
<p>There are only a handful of pitchers who get the best results via strikeouts, and they are the ones with the great power stuff.  Unfortunately, the less talented strive to pitch like the elite, and suffer because of that desire.  The best strategy is to make quality pitches, especially on strike one, and let the chips fall where they may.  This really is the pitch to contact philosophy.  Of course strikeouts carry a higher percentage of outs, Duh.  But it shouldn&#8217;t be a goal, just a comfortable result of excellent pitches.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin S.</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/22/bill-james-thinks-sabermetrics-has-overrated-ground-ball-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-460959</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kevin S.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Mar 2013 14:06:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=320528#comment-460959</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Strikeouts are important because they&#039;re outs far more often than any type of batted ball except pop-ups.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Strikeouts are important because they&#8217;re outs far more often than any type of batted ball except pop-ups.</p>
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		<title>By: spudchukar</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/22/bill-james-thinks-sabermetrics-has-overrated-ground-ball-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-460950</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spudchukar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Mar 2013 13:33:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=320528#comment-460950</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Some valid points, except for the importance of strikeouts.  Strikeouts aren&#039;t important, outs are.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some valid points, except for the importance of strikeouts.  Strikeouts aren&#8217;t important, outs are.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin S.</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/22/bill-james-thinks-sabermetrics-has-overrated-ground-ball-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-460940</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kevin S.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Mar 2013 13:01:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=320528#comment-460940</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Knuckleballers, but that could just as easily be from microscopic sample size.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Knuckleballers, but that could just as easily be from microscopic sample size.</p>
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		<title>By: sabathiawouldbegoodattheeighthtoo</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/22/bill-james-thinks-sabermetrics-has-overrated-ground-ball-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-460936</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[sabathiawouldbegoodattheeighthtoo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Mar 2013 12:46:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=320528#comment-460936</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, find me the type of pitcher who doesn&#039;t get hurt and I&#039;ll give you a cookie.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, find me the type of pitcher who doesn&#8217;t get hurt and I&#8217;ll give you a cookie.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/22/bill-james-thinks-sabermetrics-has-overrated-ground-ball-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-460935</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Mar 2013 12:43:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=320528#comment-460935</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[his problem is he&#039;s also basing information on anecdotes.  I noticed the way he was describing the pitchers when he excluded guys like Brown due to the strikeouts.  The problem is that we don&#039;t have batted ball data going back that far, so we have no statistical idea about people in the 90s and further back.

It&#039;s a bad article based on zero data, especially when multiple examples disproving his &quot;theory&quot; are brought up.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>his problem is he&#8217;s also basing information on anecdotes.  I noticed the way he was describing the pitchers when he excluded guys like Brown due to the strikeouts.  The problem is that we don&#8217;t have batted ball data going back that far, so we have no statistical idea about people in the 90s and further back.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a bad article based on zero data, especially when multiple examples disproving his &#8220;theory&#8221; are brought up.</p>
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		<title>By: Detroit Michael</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/22/bill-james-thinks-sabermetrics-has-overrated-ground-ball-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-460931</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Detroit Michael]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Mar 2013 12:22:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=320528#comment-460931</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Both this post and Rob Neyer&#039;s summary fail to adequately describe James&#039; article very well.  

The reason why James comes to an unorthodox conclusion is because he defined &quot;groundball pitcher&quot; in an unorthodox way.  Most of us think of a groundball pitcher as someone with a high percentage of groundballs divided by balls in play excluding bunts.  James defines a groundball pitcher as someone with a high percentage of groundball outs divided by total outs.

Well, duh.  That&#039;s going to lead to different conclusions.  Take someone like a young Felix Hernandez.  Under the common defintion of a groundball pitcher, Felix was an extreme groundballer but under James&#039; definition Felix recorded so many strikeouts that he would not be an extreme groundout generator.  Strikeouts are so important to a pitcher&#039;s success that someone who James considers to be an extreme groundball pitcher tends to have few strikeouts, which of course leads to a subpar career.

James&#039; research in this article was not illuniminating.  He still has unique insights often, but he tends to spend fairly little time reading others&#039; research so he can be very idiosyncratic.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Both this post and Rob Neyer&#8217;s summary fail to adequately describe James&#8217; article very well.  </p>
<p>The reason why James comes to an unorthodox conclusion is because he defined &#8220;groundball pitcher&#8221; in an unorthodox way.  Most of us think of a groundball pitcher as someone with a high percentage of groundballs divided by balls in play excluding bunts.  James defines a groundball pitcher as someone with a high percentage of groundball outs divided by total outs.</p>
<p>Well, duh.  That&#8217;s going to lead to different conclusions.  Take someone like a young Felix Hernandez.  Under the common defintion of a groundball pitcher, Felix was an extreme groundballer but under James&#8217; definition Felix recorded so many strikeouts that he would not be an extreme groundout generator.  Strikeouts are so important to a pitcher&#8217;s success that someone who James considers to be an extreme groundball pitcher tends to have few strikeouts, which of course leads to a subpar career.</p>
<p>James&#8217; research in this article was not illuniminating.  He still has unique insights often, but he tends to spend fairly little time reading others&#8217; research so he can be very idiosyncratic.</p>
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		<title>By: Detroit Michael</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/22/bill-james-thinks-sabermetrics-has-overrated-ground-ball-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-460928</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Detroit Michael]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Mar 2013 12:06:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=320528#comment-460928</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If you click through the link, you&#039;ll see that James acknowledges Greg Maddux as an exception.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you click through the link, you&#8217;ll see that James acknowledges Greg Maddux as an exception.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: onbucky96</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/22/bill-james-thinks-sabermetrics-has-overrated-ground-ball-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-460922</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[onbucky96]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Mar 2013 10:58:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=320528#comment-460922</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Lame.  Bill James, step off the soapbox.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lame.  Bill James, step off the soapbox.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/22/bill-james-thinks-sabermetrics-has-overrated-ground-ball-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-460916</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ben]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Mar 2013 05:10:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=320528#comment-460916</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This would be really, really easy to test, and I&#039;m sure someone at Fangraphs, Baseball Prospectus or the Hardball Times will do it in the coming weeks. 
But just for shits and giggles, here are the top 25 groundball pitchers from 2010. 

1      Tim Hudson--TJ before this period
2	Justin Masterson--Nope
3	Derek Lowe--Nada
4	Jake Westbrook--TJ before this period
5	Trevor Cahill--Nothin&#039;
6	Jaime Garcia--Labrum and Partial Rotator Cuff Tear, previous TJ
7	Roberto Hernandez--لا
8	Ricky Romero--לֹא
9	R.A. Dickey--Are you kidding? It&#039;s R.A. fucking DIckey. 
10	Felix Hernandez--Nope
11	Francisco Liriano--previous TJ
12	Jon Lester--I doubt ground balls give you lymphoma
13	Jon Garland--2011, Debridement Labrum &amp; Bursa &amp; Rotator Cuff
14	Adam Wainwright--Yikes
15	Carl Pavano--Nope
16	Roy Halladay--Well, I guess we&#039;ll see? But no
17	Hiroki Kuroda--Nope
18	Chris Carpenter--Thoracic Outlet Syndrome. Also, kicked in a brawl?
19	Paul Maholm--mild shoulder strain in 2011
20	Clay Buchholz--Stress Fracture in 2011	
21	CC Sabathia-nein
22	Rick Porcello-nada
23	Gavin Floyd-nothing of note	
24	Chad Billingsley--Partial UCL Ligament Tear and Flexor Tendon in 2012	
25	Edwin Jackson--is getting traded a lot an injury? 

You&#039;d obviously have to compare that, and get a much bigger sample, but pitchers get injured. And there&#039;s no common injury there other than TJ, but really, who doesn&#039;t get TJ these days?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This would be really, really easy to test, and I&#8217;m sure someone at Fangraphs, Baseball Prospectus or the Hardball Times will do it in the coming weeks.<br />
But just for shits and giggles, here are the top 25 groundball pitchers from 2010. </p>
<p>1      Tim Hudson&#8211;TJ before this period<br />
2	Justin Masterson&#8211;Nope<br />
3	Derek Lowe&#8211;Nada<br />
4	Jake Westbrook&#8211;TJ before this period<br />
5	Trevor Cahill&#8211;Nothin&#8217;<br />
6	Jaime Garcia&#8211;Labrum and Partial Rotator Cuff Tear, previous TJ<br />
7	Roberto Hernandez&#8211;لا<br />
8	Ricky Romero&#8211;לֹא<br />
9	R.A. Dickey&#8211;Are you kidding? It&#8217;s R.A. fucking DIckey.<br />
10	Felix Hernandez&#8211;Nope<br />
11	Francisco Liriano&#8211;previous TJ<br />
12	Jon Lester&#8211;I doubt ground balls give you lymphoma<br />
13	Jon Garland&#8211;2011, Debridement Labrum &amp; Bursa &amp; Rotator Cuff<br />
14	Adam Wainwright&#8211;Yikes<br />
15	Carl Pavano&#8211;Nope<br />
16	Roy Halladay&#8211;Well, I guess we&#8217;ll see? But no<br />
17	Hiroki Kuroda&#8211;Nope<br />
18	Chris Carpenter&#8211;Thoracic Outlet Syndrome. Also, kicked in a brawl?<br />
19	Paul Maholm&#8211;mild shoulder strain in 2011<br />
20	Clay Buchholz&#8211;Stress Fracture in 2011<br />
21	CC Sabathia-nein<br />
22	Rick Porcello-nada<br />
23	Gavin Floyd-nothing of note<br />
24	Chad Billingsley&#8211;Partial UCL Ligament Tear and Flexor Tendon in 2012<br />
25	Edwin Jackson&#8211;is getting traded a lot an injury? </p>
<p>You&#8217;d obviously have to compare that, and get a much bigger sample, but pitchers get injured. And there&#8217;s no common injury there other than TJ, but really, who doesn&#8217;t get TJ these days?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/22/bill-james-thinks-sabermetrics-has-overrated-ground-ball-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-460915</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Mar 2013 04:41:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=320528#comment-460915</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Without doing too much research, my gut instinct would be that groundball pitchers might be more likely to get injured because they throw a slider. You hear broadcasters all the time say it&#039;s a &quot;sinker slider type&quot;, and sliders generally put more strain on the arm. Granted Webb didn&#039;t throw a slider, but Wang did. 

I think James is wrong that groundball pitchers are overrated. Obviously a guy who has a high strikeout rate is better than someone with just a high GB rate, but that doesn&#039;t make a GB pitcher overrated. We know for a fact that pitchers who get groundballs are on average more successful than their flyball counterparts. The Baseball Analysts studied it for several years, and every year the GB pitcher had a better ERA than a flyball guy (everything else being equal) --&gt; http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2009/02/post_6.php.

I&#039;m too tired to look, but they have studies for 2009 and include walk rates in addition to K&#039;s and GB, but the bottom line is that groundball pitchers are more successful than flyball guys with everything else being equal. Of course an elite strikeout pitcher like Verlander is more valuable, but that has more to do with strikeouts being so important and not because of the lack of ground balls.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Without doing too much research, my gut instinct would be that groundball pitchers might be more likely to get injured because they throw a slider. You hear broadcasters all the time say it&#8217;s a &#8220;sinker slider type&#8221;, and sliders generally put more strain on the arm. Granted Webb didn&#8217;t throw a slider, but Wang did. </p>
<p>I think James is wrong that groundball pitchers are overrated. Obviously a guy who has a high strikeout rate is better than someone with just a high GB rate, but that doesn&#8217;t make a GB pitcher overrated. We know for a fact that pitchers who get groundballs are on average more successful than their flyball counterparts. The Baseball Analysts studied it for several years, and every year the GB pitcher had a better ERA than a flyball guy (everything else being equal) &#8211;&gt; <a href="http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2009/02/post_6.php" rel="nofollow">http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2009/02/post_6.php</a>.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m too tired to look, but they have studies for 2009 and include walk rates in addition to K&#8217;s and GB, but the bottom line is that groundball pitchers are more successful than flyball guys with everything else being equal. Of course an elite strikeout pitcher like Verlander is more valuable, but that has more to do with strikeouts being so important and not because of the lack of ground balls.</p>
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		<title>By: mrfloydpink</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/22/bill-james-thinks-sabermetrics-has-overrated-ground-ball-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-460914</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mrfloydpink]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Mar 2013 04:40:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=320528#comment-460914</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Bill James was once a brilliant visionary. In his older years he&#039;s become...considerably less so, let&#039;s say.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill James was once a brilliant visionary. In his older years he&#8217;s become&#8230;considerably less so, let&#8217;s say.</p>
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		<title>By: spudchukar</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/22/bill-james-thinks-sabermetrics-has-overrated-ground-ball-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-460913</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[spudchukar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Mar 2013 04:37:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=320528#comment-460913</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks so much for the acknowledgement that all ground ball, or fly balls for that matter are not the same.  This seems so obvious, and yet in Sabermetricland if it bounces it is identical.

Of course power guys, Gibson, Koufax, Seaver etc are preferable, but they are rare.  Pitch to contact isn&#039;t ideal, just practical.  If you flounder trying to be Gibson, then try something else, and for some guys, like Kyle Lohse, yes I am still flogging that long deceased equine, have found another method that can be successful.

James&#039; mistake, is forced categorization, thus labels.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks so much for the acknowledgement that all ground ball, or fly balls for that matter are not the same.  This seems so obvious, and yet in Sabermetricland if it bounces it is identical.</p>
<p>Of course power guys, Gibson, Koufax, Seaver etc are preferable, but they are rare.  Pitch to contact isn&#8217;t ideal, just practical.  If you flounder trying to be Gibson, then try something else, and for some guys, like Kyle Lohse, yes I am still flogging that long deceased equine, have found another method that can be successful.</p>
<p>James&#8217; mistake, is forced categorization, thus labels.</p>
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		<title>By: hackerjay</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/22/bill-james-thinks-sabermetrics-has-overrated-ground-ball-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-460902</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[hackerjay]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Mar 2013 03:20:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=320528#comment-460902</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think it&#039;s pretty unfair to say Webb only had two good years. He was a top five pitcher for like six years.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it&#8217;s pretty unfair to say Webb only had two good years. He was a top five pitcher for like six years.</p>
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		<title>By: paperlions</title>
		<link>http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/22/bill-james-thinks-sabermetrics-has-overrated-ground-ball-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-460873</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[paperlions]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Mar 2013 01:54:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=320528#comment-460873</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Isn&#039;t the point that if you aren&#039;t going to be striking out a lot of guys, it is better to have them hit it on the ground than in the air?  Because most of the guys James listed weren&#039;t flyball pitchers either, they were strikeout pitchers.  There are weird statements in there intimating that he&#039;s just going to ignore guys that are good at both striking out hitters and getting groundballs....but he&#039;s NOT going to ignore guys that are good at striking out hitters and getting flyballs.  I&#039;d love to see the long list of guys that were awesome that couldn&#039;t strike anyone out and that gave up a bunch of flyballs the last 20 years....but yeah, back in the days of huge parks and a dead ball....why not give up fly balls?  They weren&#039;t going anywhere.  We don&#039;t play baseball in those conditions anymore.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t the point that if you aren&#8217;t going to be striking out a lot of guys, it is better to have them hit it on the ground than in the air?  Because most of the guys James listed weren&#8217;t flyball pitchers either, they were strikeout pitchers.  There are weird statements in there intimating that he&#8217;s just going to ignore guys that are good at both striking out hitters and getting groundballs&#8230;.but he&#8217;s NOT going to ignore guys that are good at striking out hitters and getting flyballs.  I&#8217;d love to see the long list of guys that were awesome that couldn&#8217;t strike anyone out and that gave up a bunch of flyballs the last 20 years&#8230;.but yeah, back in the days of huge parks and a dead ball&#8230;.why not give up fly balls?  They weren&#8217;t going anywhere.  We don&#8217;t play baseball in those conditions anymore.</p>
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