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What happens next in the Biogenesis scandal?

Jun 5, 2013, 11:59 AM EDT

The news is out. Major League Baseball, ESPN reports, has enlisted the cooperation of the former head of the Biogenesis clinic, Anthony Bosch, who is expected to implicate multiple players as performance enhancing drugs users. Baseball will then seem to suspend these players for anywhere from 50 to 100 games.

The question: how, exactly, will they do this and how long might it take before we actually see players suspended?

It could take a while.  According to the ESPN report, Major League Baseball has yet to interview Anthony Bosch. Further, according to a statement issued by the Major League Baseball Players’ Association, Major League Baseball is “in process of interviewing players ” and the league “has assured us no decisions regarding discipline have been made.”  This means that the league is still in fact-finding mode. It is still building its case against the players and has yet to even talk to the man who is expected to do most of the heavy lifting in that building: Bosch. It’s unclear how long that building may take, but it’s not unreasonable to think it could be weeks or even months.

Once Major League Baseball has decided to discipline players there is more waiting involved. That’s because the players, pursuant to the Joint Drug Agreement, have a right to appeal any suspension to an arbitration panel. Discipline is stayed until the arbitration panel has issued its ruling, determining whether or not the league’s discipline is justified.

Normally such appeals entail a relatively short procedure because normally suspensions are issued as the result of a positive drug test. Players have a limited avenue upon which they can appeal such tests, with few exceptions or defenses available to them. One notable example came in 2012 when Ryan Braun‘s positive drug test and suspension were overturned based on a broken chain of custody of his urine sample. That appeal took several weeks.

Any Biogenesis-related suspensions are likely to lead to the most complex and lengthy appeals baseball has ever seen. Partially because of the sheer number of players involved. Mostly, however, because the evidence that would be used against the players is not something as simple and generally unassailable as a failed drug test. It is the testimony of Bosch, a man with serious credibility problems. A man who has very recently denied that any players he dealt with took performance enhancing drugs but who would now, presumably, be flip-flopping on those statements. A man who has been accused by many as a drug dealer, a criminal and a fraud. It is safe to say that the players, their lawyers and the union would spend considerable time attacking the evidence against them before the arbitration panel. And fairness would dictate that they be granted considerable time before any arbitration commenced to prepare their case.

And that’s before we even get to the punishment. The ESPN report from Tuesday night suggested that Major League Baseball is seeking to suspend some players, including Alex Rodriguez and Ryan Braun, for 100 games, alleging that they actually committed two violations: taking PEDs and lying about it.  This would be a bold and controversial position for the league to take given that the Joint Drug Agreement does not specifically provide for double discipline arising out of what the players would argue is a first offense (neither Braun nor Rodriguez have ever been suspended before).  Expect those players’ lawyers to mount a vigorous defense to any such discipline. Indeed, given the stakes involved — tens of millions of dollars in salaries and possibly the effective end of their careers — it’s not inconceivable that they would try to take their fight beyond the arbitration setting and attempt to mount litigation of their own against Major League Baseball.

That’s a pretty complicated set of circumstances. As a result, it is quite possible that no players are actually suspended for months, even if the league were to complete its investigation in relatively short order.  Also as a result: it means that we’re going to be hearing about the Biogenesis case for a long, long time.

  1. evanwins - Jun 5, 2013 at 12:06 PM

    So Gio Gonzalez went to a known PED farm for legitimate treatment? Everyone else went for PEDs but not him. Why chose this place for real treatment? Seems very suspicious.

    • voteforno6 - Jun 5, 2013 at 12:20 PM

      Actually, it was his father that went there.

      • mattj425 - Jun 5, 2013 at 12:54 PM

        Wouldn’t every player have a family member or friend get the PEDs for them instead so as to avoid being directly implicated? Without knowing the details, I don’t see why his father going there is automatically a free pass.

      • chacochicken - Jun 5, 2013 at 12:58 PM

        For what its worth, a woman with a personal relationship with Robinson Cano also went there.

      • sabatimus - Jun 5, 2013 at 1:18 PM

        Good points people…anything to get the offending player’s name as far away from the books as possible.

    • trollingforjustice - Jun 5, 2013 at 1:26 PM

      Gio gonzalez wasnt involved..come to find out it was his dad

      • shwoogy1 - Jun 5, 2013 at 3:37 PM

        Hey Troll, learn to read.

  2. chill1184 - Jun 5, 2013 at 12:09 PM

    Regardless of when the end of the saga happens. I think owners are going to go to MLB and ask if they can put PED clauses into their contracts

    • mashoaf - Jun 5, 2013 at 12:19 PM

      That is why they have drug testing.

      • tycobbfromfangraphs - Jun 5, 2013 at 12:46 PM

        There’s the point!
        It’s right over your head!

    • sabatimus - Jun 5, 2013 at 12:45 PM

      Yeah, and the MLBPA will shoot that mother down quicker than you can say “protect our own”.

      • tycobbfromfangraphs - Jun 5, 2013 at 12:48 PM

        So lock them out and crush the union.
        Cancel 2 years if need be, destroy this union, get a legit commish and fix pro baseball.

      • sabatimus - Jun 5, 2013 at 1:01 PM

        Ty, you and I both know that there’s no way that will happen.

      • tycobbfromfangraphs - Jun 5, 2013 at 1:08 PM

        Of course it won’t because baseball is broken. It’s run by a rich few who have no interest in fixing anything. The NFL was smart enough to stick together as partners, crush the union and get things done. The NHL owners were willing to crush the NHLPA and did twice, and got the things done that they needed. That won’t happen in MLB because it’s not a partnership, it’s every team for themselves. A strong league with a strong commish would have never allowed things to get so bad.

      • sabatimus - Jun 5, 2013 at 1:24 PM

        Ty, I can’t speak for the NFL, but the NHL has seen THREE work stoppages under the owners…er…Bettman. In that time the league has had its television revenues destroyed, casual fanbase alienated, and many millions of dollars’ worth of unplayed games flushed down the toilet. Perhaps Bettman would call that getting things done that they needed.

        As far as the 2012 lockout went, I call it a grossly unnecessary situation that should have been solved by July if not August. I call it product damage of the highest order.

      • churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Jun 5, 2013 at 1:25 PM

        A strong league with a strong commish would have never allowed things to get so bad.

        $7B in revenue and rising. What is so bad MLB again? Players are making money hand over fist, so are the owners…

      • clemente2 - Jun 5, 2013 at 1:42 PM

        Hoo, boy. There is already a “PED” clause in contracts—in fact, it is in the contract between the plaeys’ union and the MLB. It details the events that are prohibited, the testing for such prohibited activities, the procedures for ahndling disputes, discipline, and the like. Amazingly, Craig has posted about five things about it in the last 12 hours, pretty good for such a new discovery, at least by you.

        Yes, maybe the owners should include something about PED use in players’ contracts…gee.

        As to tycobb, as usual, idiocy reigns.

      • bigharold - Jun 5, 2013 at 1:49 PM

        “…quicker than you can say “protect our own”.

        Interestingly enough that is exactly what the union isn’t doing. They are clearly not protecting the “clean” players from those that are using. They are not even protecting the users from themselves. PED abuse poses serious health, legal and career concerns.

        The union’s misguided attempt to “protect” their own will not only not do so in the long run, in the short run it actually puts pressure on players less inclined to cheat. Practically speaking, if I’m a fringe player, not using PEDs and I’m being challenged for my roster spot by a player that I even suspect of using PEDs that is a very good reason for me to cheat too. MLB minimum wage is what, $425K a year? If I’m a 29 year old utility infielder and it’s either I stay in “the show” or I go back to my home town to sell cars. .. AND I’m pretty sure the guy chasing my roster spot is juicing, .. that decision kind of makes itself.

        In the long run if the union will not make every effort to work with MLB to rid baseball of PEDs they risk he very real possibility of Congress passing laws that will regulate professional sports with regard to PED testing that would be as sophisticated as Olympic competition including mandatory suspensions and banning for far greater than the currently agreed upon penalties. Furthermore, Congressional stipulated regulation draconian measures could be mandatory federal prosecution for athletes for violating federal drug laws.

        At one time the MLPA were staunchly obstructionist and that has now morphed into a willingness to be more constructive with regard to PED testing. It’s time for the MLPA to work aggressively towards ridding MLB of PEDs. They need to get ahead of the curve rather than merely react to these scandals as they arise. That will be a tall order since it would effectively put some of there members at risk. But, long term it would be the healthiest hing for baseball. Failure to act aggressively might well prove the opposite of protecting “our own”.

  3. specialkindofstupid - Jun 5, 2013 at 12:11 PM

    As long as no one from my favorite team is impacted, I’m okay with whatever scandal baseball wants to throw out there. Heck, suspend everyone in baseball if it means the Braves can finally win another World Series. Sure, the victory would be hollow, but at least it would mean I could finally bury the grudge I’ve had against Lonnie Smith the past two decades.

    • brewcrewfan54 - Jun 5, 2013 at 12:25 PM

      PED’s are obviously still pretty prevalent in MLB. If you think no Braves are doing them you’re kidding yourself

      • specialkindofstupid - Jun 5, 2013 at 12:28 PM

        No, I’m not saying no one on the Braves ever used (or that anyone may use today). Heck, we had Ken Caminiti for a little while. Melky Cabrera, too, back when he sucked.

        I’m just saying I’m okay as long as the scandals don’t impact the Braves. Because once they do, I’ll no longer be in favor!

        (And yes, I’m mostly joking with all of this.)

    • bfunk1978 - Jun 5, 2013 at 12:38 PM

      I got the sarcasm, it’s cool.

    • largebill - Jun 5, 2013 at 1:31 PM

      That probably sums up feelings of most fans better than any commentary by Lupica or other sanctimonious sportswriters. We don’t except for how it may affect our favorite team (or players on our fantasy team). So far I haven’t seen any Indians listed or players from my fantasy team so my concern level, other than irritation at hearing about it endlessly, is pretty low.

      • largebill - Jun 5, 2013 at 1:34 PM

        Dang-it. The word “care” should follow “don’t” in second sentence of that post.

  4. paperlions - Jun 5, 2013 at 12:14 PM

    If Selig forms a committee to look into this situation, I assume all of the involved players will be retired before they get around to interviewing anyone.

    • historiophiliac - Jun 5, 2013 at 12:20 PM

      So it plays out like the Clemens deal?

  5. nategearhart - Jun 5, 2013 at 12:15 PM

    Hopefully for Bud’s sake he doesn’t have to wait for his committee on the San Jose situation to make a decision before he can reassign them to the Biogenesis business.

  6. churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Jun 5, 2013 at 12:20 PM

    A man who has very recently denied that any players he dealt with took performance enhancing drugs but who would now, presumably, be flip-flopping on those statements.

    For Craig, or anyone else who has worked with arbitration panels, can you elaborate on this? IANAL, but assuming it was a court of law, the defense’s first question would probably be “were you lying then, or are you lying now?” How does this work in front of an arbitration panel. Is Bosch under oath and subject to perjury charges?

    • zacksdad - Jun 5, 2013 at 12:45 PM

      Is the “man” in question named Craig?

    • sabatimus - Jun 5, 2013 at 12:52 PM

      In my opinion, until Bosch is under oath, Bosch could implicate everyone from Cy Young to Izzy Alcantara and MLB would be overstepping its powers by suspending ANYONE. For that matter, even if he IS under oath and implicates those 20 or so players, how can anyone believe a proven liar? He did it before, why wouldn’t he do it again to save his own butt?

      • largebill - Jun 5, 2013 at 1:42 PM

        “how can anyone believe a proven liar?” Well, you start by realizing everybody is a liar. Some lies are silly little things like one someone is late other lies are about larger matters. The fact that someone is changing their story does not automatically invalidate the new story. However, it gives reason to question when they were telling the truth. A judge, jury or arbitrator has to listen carefully and use their best judgment and weigh testimony accordingly. Sure, every prosecutor would prefer witnesses be 100% consistent, but in the real world you work with what you have.

      • mjames1229 - Jun 5, 2013 at 1:56 PM

        Izzy Alcantara. Out-STANDING!

    • billybawl - Jun 5, 2013 at 1:03 PM

      I’m very familiar with labor arbitrations, and assume baseball arbitrations are materially similar. Witnesses testify under oath, so could be subject to perjury. The Union would attempt to discredit Bosch as a lying so-and-so, get him to reveal what he’s gotten in return for his testimony, etc. I can’t say this comes up in my arbitration cases, but keep in mind that it’s not uncommon in criminal and civil cases that a witness gets something in return for testimony — immunity, cash (esp. if you’re an expert witness) or a favorable settlement of a lawsuit. In the end, it would be up to the arbitrator to decide what weight to give Bosch’s testimony. Even if he’s a lowlife who is trying to protect his own skin, there’s some corroborating evidence — the docs, and fact that a few of his alleged clients did test positive. Frankly, I don’t understand the blogosphere assuming that whatever Bosch says can’t be credited. Judges, juries and arbitrators hear lies, half-truths and spins all the time and decide what weight it deserves.

      What I’m really interested in seeing is whether any players will testify. It’s a complicated question. They risk criminal perjury charges if they lie. A refusal to testify could lead to a negative inference by the arbitrator (a complicated issue in non-public sector arbitrations). I think in the run-of-the mill arbitration, employees will give priority to avoiding possible criminal charges over keeping their job or suffering a suspension. But I think with these arbitrations, the priorities could be reversed unless the government shows some interest in prosecuting off-label PED use.

      • sabatimus - Jun 5, 2013 at 1:15 PM

        Yes, it is up to the judicial system to determine the veracity of one’s statements. However, an arbiter will know Bosch’s history of lying, and then if he reverses himself things get that much more foggy and asinine. An arbiter is supposed to be able to parse out such things, but how is that truly possible? In a court of law, Bosch’s credibility would be garbage. This, coupled with the fact that MLB intends to pay him, in turn makes anything Bosch says garbage. I don’t understand how any court would possibly admit him as a credible witness, even if he is a stellar witness.

      • churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Jun 5, 2013 at 1:34 PM

        Thanks billybawl, that helps immensely.

        Frankly, I don’t understand the blogosphere assuming that whatever Bosch says can’t be credited. Judges, juries and arbitrators hear lies, half-truths and spins all the time and decide what weight it deserves.

        Speaking for myself, I don’t give the guy any credit because the entire chain of events here is fishy. First, the “evidence” in this case (and it needs to be repeatedly ad nauseum), is hand written names on paper. It’s not a complex spreadsheet with drugs and amounts and dollars owed, with cycling calendars like BALCO was. Second, Bosch initially told everyone that he wasn’t treating athletes for PEDs and that the documents were false. Third, the guy isn’t even a licensed doctor. So after all this, MLB offers him a sweetheart deal and he’s going to go back on all that previous information?

      • historiophiliac - Jun 5, 2013 at 2:08 PM

        People act like arbitrators are just some ignorant yayhoos off the street. Arbitrators are trained and deal with issues like these frequently. They don’t just pick any moron to handle these — especially not cases this size. Geez. The ones I dealt with had years of legal training/practice behind them and some were former judges. The person who handles these will not be at their first rodeo.

      • billybawl - Jun 5, 2013 at 2:09 PM

        We obviously don’t know all (most?) of the facts, just what somebody has leaked through the press, and it’s absolutely fair to wonder how Bosch’s testimony will be received. But he may not be the only witness and imagine if even one player decides to confess in exchange for lighter punishment. Then Bosch’s (presumed) testimony starts to look more credible.

        Also keep in mind that criminal prosecutions (“beyond a reasonable doubt”) are obtained every day with testimony from low-life witnesses who receive some benefit from testifying. Bosch can definitely be impeached (his credibility attacked) but I wouldn’t go so far as to say his testimony is “garbage” just because it was bought in some way.

      • churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Jun 5, 2013 at 4:11 PM

        Bosch can definitely be impeached (his credibility attacked) but I wouldn’t go so far as to say his testimony is “garbage” just because it was bought in some way.

        I agree, but again, (unless there’s some smoking gun we haven’t heard about), the evidence is handwritten notes. Considering I can doctor up the same evidence in about 5 minutes with my kids crayons, I assume an arbiter isn’t going to give them much consideration. It essentially becomes Bosch’s word vs the players, and the players don’t have the burden of proof resting on them.

        I also wanted to ask you, how exactly do the players fight this? For instance, I assume someone like Cabrera is going to want to argue (if he did do it), that he was already punished for this. And guys like Braun are going to want to argue that there were legitimate reasons for contacting the “doctor” while Arod flatly denies using. Would the players appeal individually to the arbiters or would they hear them all at the same time, a la a class action suit?

  7. lanjoith - Jun 5, 2013 at 12:21 PM

    Leave them alone. If you ain’t cheating you ain’t trying. I’d rather watch a great offensive baseball game with players on PED’s than a 2-1 game with 2 extra base hits and no HR’s in a “clean” game. The summer of ’98 saved baseball after the strike & the fact that Sosa & McGwire did it on PED’s doesn’t bother me at all. It was awesome to watch.

    • louhudson23 - Jun 5, 2013 at 12:32 PM

      I could not disagree more. The McGwire-Sosa-Bonds freak show was shitty baseball.Period.

      • sabatimus - Jun 5, 2013 at 12:54 PM

        I hated it too. I thought it was pretty obvious that they were cheating (and, unlike lanjoith, I find PED use offensive) from a purely subjective standpoint. Then, when that silly congressional hearing came around, it became even more obvious.

    • billybawl - Jun 5, 2013 at 1:08 PM

      “Son, you have all the skills required to be a great ballplayer. But if you want a pro contract, you’re going to need to take steroids and any other drugs these fly-by-night labs come up with. It ain’t legal under the law, and we can’t tell you what it’ll do to you long term, but that’s the way the game is played. If you aint’ cheating you ain’t trying. Meet Tony Bosch, now bend over.”

  8. courageousdeer - Jun 5, 2013 at 12:24 PM

    You nailed it, Craig. I can’t imagine MLB is thrilled with the idea of this stinky pile appearing in the media daily for the next two years or so, especially since their approach has been consistently head-in-the-sand, CYA-type actions to avoid looking bad. Oops, too late. Also, this is only going to increase animosity between MLB and the union. As Craig so clearly stated last night, MLB seems much more interested in vengeance than in digging down to the root causes of the problem.

  9. voteforno6 - Jun 5, 2013 at 12:25 PM

    I’m not sure how MLB can make these suspensions stick. They seem to be relying on documents that they bought from former Biogenesis employees, and want to corroborate that with testimony from someone with financial and legal problems (some caused by MLB). Whatever evidence MLB may get from this, regardless of how true it is, may be too tainted. I wouldn’t be surprised if MLB was trying to spook some of the players into cutting a deal with them, so as to nail a few of the really big names.

  10. rbj1 - Jun 5, 2013 at 12:25 PM

    ” it’s not inconceivable that they would try to take their fight beyond the arbitration setting and attempt to mount litigation of their own against Major League Baseball.”

    I wouldn’t even bother with the arbitration process. If I’m the MLBPA I go straight to the the NLRB claiming MLB is violating the CBA by first pressuring Bosch with a lawsuit and then inducing him to admit to things by indemifying him and putting in a good word with law enforcement. Remember, if what he says is true, then he forged prescriptions which attacks his credibility. So you’re standard for “just cause” is the word of a liar and you are seeking second time penalties (100 games) when there haven’t been first time penalties handed down yet.

    • Old Gator - Jun 5, 2013 at 12:31 PM

      Gowachin guilty!

    • historiophiliac - Jun 5, 2013 at 12:32 PM

      How is pressuring Bosch a violation of the CBA? They can’t bypass arbitration.

      • rbj1 - Jun 5, 2013 at 12:50 PM

        Bosch held himself out as a doctor even though he isn’t (had a lab coat with the name “Dr. Tony” on it, from the MNT article) and either forged prescriptions himself or had others do it. So twice he’s lied or misrepresented for financial gain. Now MLB pressures him with a lawsuit, then agrees to withdraw the lawsuit and help him financially. Are you telling me that he’s not going to doctor his story to help MLB?

        The hook for the CBA violation is the first time 100 game penalties. That only happens for a second violation. A-Rod hasn’t had a first violation yet. MLB wouldn’t be working within the framework of the CBA which is why I would go outside of the process. Going outside of a CBA violates federal labor laws for which the remedy is the NLRB and then federal courts.

      • sabatimus - Jun 5, 2013 at 12:59 PM

        Pressuring Bosch in itself is not a violation of the CBA. The 100 games for first-time offenders may indeed be. Is there a clause in it about lying to MLB about PED use? In any case, if MLB pursues this, they’ll be showing that they’re willing to believe (and set up financially) a man who has already lied profusely to the league.

        This just stinks of mass corruption and a lack of scruples across the board.

      • historiophiliac - Jun 5, 2013 at 1:00 PM

        No, I just don’t think he’s covered by the CBA. The players are, but it doesn’t have any power over Bosch. I believe the CBA mandates arbitration, and the players are bound to that process. I can’t remember if NLRA protections are waivable…

      • churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Jun 5, 2013 at 1:38 PM

        Is there a clause in it about lying to MLB

        Almost positive there isn’t, because this wasn’t covered when MLB did it to the MiLB kid who lied. MiLB aren’t covered under the CBA.

      • billybawl - Jun 5, 2013 at 2:16 PM

        Employees can get disciplined for lying under the terms of a CBA. The penalty might depend on the specific language in the CBA (which somebody could google if they’re interested). In any case, the severity of the discipline, whether it’s a first or second offense, whether Bosch is credible, etc. is all grist for the arbitrator’s mill — s/he decides whether the CBA was violated.

  11. sdelmonte - Jun 5, 2013 at 12:30 PM

    So in other words, nothing regarding what’s going on now is actually newsworthy. Wake me when the investigations are over.

    Honestly, I am not looking forward to visiting any sports news site for the next year.

  12. elmo - Jun 5, 2013 at 12:36 PM

    MLB may end up damaging its own credibility here. Not because of Bosch, who may well turn out to be telling the truth, but because by taking this route, MLB is implicitly admitting that its drugs testing regime has been ineffective.

    • anotheryx - Jun 5, 2013 at 12:41 PM

      I don’t think anyone is shocked that drug testing in general is ineffective. Lance never failed a drug test, remember?

      • elmo - Jun 5, 2013 at 12:54 PM

        No, it’s not news to most of us, but MLB likes to pretend otherwise, and now they can’t really do that anymore.

      • churchoftheperpetuallyoutraged - Jun 5, 2013 at 2:09 PM

        While I agree the testing is behind the cheating, let’s not lump everyone in to the program Armstrong was running. Besides bribing people to hide a failed test, he was also involved in blood doping. Things that are far harder to detect than elevated testosterone levels. I mean, Melky tried to setup a website to cover his ass.

    • sabatimus - Jun 5, 2013 at 1:30 PM

      From a purely cynical point of view, I think that after the congressional hearing MLB paid lip service to more and better testing, and now would claim to be successful given the lack of outrageous home run totals; I’m betting there are positive tests that the league doesn’t make public because it’s trying to preserve its (flimsy) stance that the league is doing the right thing in combating PED use.

  13. muskyhunter2542 - Jun 5, 2013 at 12:40 PM

    Ryan Braun is a terrorist… He should hang!!!

    • anotheryx - Jun 5, 2013 at 12:42 PM

      I wouldn’t hang him. Suspension, sure.

      • historiophiliac - Jun 5, 2013 at 1:06 PM

        Hang/suspension — nice

    • sabatimus - Jun 5, 2013 at 1:34 PM

      Given his PED use, he probably doesn’t hang at all.

  14. beefytrout - Jun 5, 2013 at 12:56 PM

    What happens next? A shitload of lawyers get a lot richer.

  15. Jason Lukehart - Jun 5, 2013 at 1:08 PM

    If MLB really intends to attempt to penalize these players twice (which I don’t think has any chance of sticking), would they also then be pushing for this to count as the second and third penalties for players like Melky Cabrera, who’ve already been suspended once before? I ask because the third offense is a lifetime ban.

  16. Taz - Jun 5, 2013 at 1:10 PM

    Question: Why would they give a 100-game suspension? Wouldn’t it be 150?

    Assume they can do this. Dealing with Bosch is one offense, covering it up is the second. So 50 for the first, 100 for the second. That’s 150.

    Or are they just skipping to the second offense? Are they considering it two instances of a first offense? I just don’t see why it’s 100.

  17. trollingforjustice - Jun 5, 2013 at 1:30 PM

    is senator Mcarthy involved in this?

    • sabatimus - Jun 5, 2013 at 1:31 PM

      I was going for the Warren Commission myself.

  18. greymares - Jun 5, 2013 at 2:24 PM

    I have entered the state of apathy, I don’t care what they take, I don’t care if they win championships because of it, I don’t care if they’re ruining their lives after the game, I don’t care if they are ruining the lives of their offspring. I just want to see who WINS.

  19. fiddytucker - Jun 13, 2013 at 9:45 PM

    Ryan “Juice” Braun was some kid’s hero… What an ass

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